"....you will be like gods, knowing good and evil."

by Lilycurly 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  funkyderek

  Shazard:

  Which part didn't you understood? Death in Christianity is a bit different understood than in secular world. Death from God's point of view is to be separated from God and all what God wants for you. So God didn't lie, man was cast out of Eden so actually he died - was seperated from God in the very day of wrongdoing.

  That is exactly the bit I don't understand. That death doesn't really mean death. It means God being mad with you. What he said was "You will positively die", but what he meant was apparently "I will throw you out of the garden, inflict random and arbitrary hardships on you while still expecting you to worship me". What then was the tree of life? Had they managed to thwart God's plan and eat from it, would they have been welcomed back into the sight of God, or would they have lived forever as a straightforward reading of the story seems to imply?
  
  

  Knowing good and evil by experience actually means to become evil. That's what happened and evil can't be in presence of God. You don't have to know evil by experience to survive in God's presence, so it was not necessary actually for man.

  So what did YHWH mean when he said "The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil"? That he had become evil like YHWH and his companions?

  But what snake sayed is that actually God is lying and hiding something from man. That God does not want for man something good, and man believed snake rather then God even when man had experience of God's grace in Eden and didn't have any base to believe in snake. Lying in it's pure form - to change good and evil!

  No, what happened is what the snake said would happen, they became like God knowing good from evil. Because YHWH's deception was discovered, he decided to torture and kill them.

  This is what happenning today globally - good becomes evil and evil becomes good.

  Clearly, if you believe that YHWH, the murderous liar in the story, was good, and the serpent, who revealed the deception, was evil.

  And by separation from God comes corruption which end's in ordinary fleshy death.

  Separation from God in the Bible always seems to be beneficial. It's only those who get involved with the bullying YHWH that seem to have problems.
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  kid-A

  And by separation from God comes corruption which end's in ordinary fleshy death.

  Which god? Your god? The hindu's god? The muslim's god? The jew's god? Zeus? Thor? Neptune? Artemis?

  Oh I forgot. You have a monopoly on eternal salvation.....LOL......
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  PrimateDave

  I believe Narkissos hit the nail on the head. "Yahveh of the gods" was not the same god that most modern Christians brought up on monotheism, Jesus, and Satan think of when they think of "God the Father". This is an evolved theology. Later writers naturally built upon the works of earlier writers that they had read. The fact that "John" recorded in Revelation that Satan was the original serpent may seem like some grand unifying theme of the Bible, but it is just a result of theological evolution which is merely a reflection of human cultural evolution.
  Early Yahveh was a very human like deity in his actions and reactions because that is the kind of god that the Jahvistic writer 'J' believed in. The later Priestly writer 'P' had a very different view of his god. The combination of 'J', 'E' (Elohist writer), 'P', and 'D' (Deuteronimist writer) by the redactor 'R' (possibly Ezra) gives us the Pentateuch we know today. Man has made god(s) in his own image.
  The notion that somehow Adam and Eve lost everlasting life for all of us because of their original sin is also a part of later evolved theology. This account is an attempt by a scientifically ignorant culture to explain why humans die. It may also attempt to teach the value of private property. In ancient times, civilized (clothed agriculturalists) humans may have from time to time had contact with uncivilized (naked hunter-gatherers) humans. Perhaps the civilized cultures had to find some way to explain why those other people didn't feel ashamed of their nakedness.
  Dave
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  riverofdeceit

  The bible says god said: "The DAY you eat from it you're gonna fricken die"

  Satan says: "No you won't. You'll just stop being naive and ignorant."

  It is right there in black and white.

  They didn't die that day and their eyes were indeed opened. God lied. Satan didn't. God didn't say that they would never die if they didn't eat from it. Actually, they would still would have died unless they ate the other fruit, apparently. Sooooooooo, the only way to explain that away is to decide that god meant something other than what he actually said. Which seems to be where this discussion has headed.

  ..."when god said they would die that day, he didn't mean die as in no longer be alive..."

  ..."when he said 'that day', he didn't mean the same day,he meant that they wouldn't live forever"

  Does that really make any sense?

  Say what you mean and mean what you say! Let your yes mean yes and your no, no!
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  elatwra

  If I tell my son that if he breaks one of my rules he will get such and such punishment but then one of his older siblings tricks him into breaking my rule, and I do not follow through with the promised punishment does that make ne a liar?

  They ate the apple but not on their own. Hence the altered punishment, chance for redemption...
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  elatwra

  Satan says: "No you won't. You'll just stop being naive and ignorant."

  Isn't there some things that you would rather never know? Do you protect your kids from certain subjects? Is it because you want them naive and ignorant?
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  daystar

  Isn't there some things that you would rather never know? Do you protect your kids from certain subjects? Is it because you want them naive and ignorant?

  And if you at some point early in their lives protect them from certain subjects, don't you also at some point let them go and become adults?

  Some things I would rather never know? Huh?! Ignorance is bliss? No, absolutely not. I'd rather know.
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  riverofdeceit

  Isn't there some things that you would rather never know?

  No.

  And as far as the other questions, I fail to see their relevance. They weren't children. They were naive and ignorant becuase that is how "Jehovah" kept them and wanted them. If I were supposedly trying to protect them, being an allseeing superpower, I wouldn't allow this so-called "lying" serpent around to stir up shit.
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  TopHat

  I have a question: Why didn't the serpent lead Eve to the tree of Life?
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  kazar

  Tophat, that is a great question! One I've never heard before. If anyone knows the answer, please post. I have pondered the mystery of the original pair in Eden since I first heard it. The Witnesses taught me that when God said, "Look, the man has become as one of us knowing good and evil", He was speaking to Jesus (Michael at that time) and the angels; also when He made that statement, it was said in a sarcastic manner because Adam and Eve didn't gain knowledge; that their disobedience was the sin they committed. I could never understand what it had to do with being naked. Even though I don't believe the bible, I would still like to know if there is an explanation for it.