on the trinity

by drew sagan 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  mdb

  Some interresting passages to ponder...

  But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:8)

  and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Php 2:11)

  Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (Jn 8:24)

  Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. (Jn 8:28)

  Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” (Jn 8:58)

  And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (Jn 20:28,29)

  It was not only the resurrection of Jesus that Thomas believed, but that Jesus was his Lord and God. Jesus said, "if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." Jesus is God, the Son of God. That is essential.
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  JosephMalik
• 

  JosephMalik

  MDB,

  While you are pondering all these texts, keep in mind that it is the HUMAN Jesus being discussed in them. It is the Human Jesus to whom Thomas made his confession of faith. It is the human Jesus that will return once again to rule on this earth as stated: 11 Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

  Joseph
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  mdb

  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1 Co 15:53,54)

  Jesus was raised in the flesh, but His mortal body has put on immortality. Jesus, even while on this earth, was still fully God who added to His nature a mortal body. It was the resurrected Christ that Thomas made his confession of faith to. Regardless, even in the flesh many confessed that Jesus is Lord and worshipped him. He still claimed to be the I AM. That makes Jesus to be God as is the Father.

  What is the purpose of your statement "it is the HUMAN Jesus being discussed"? There isn't a "human Jesus" and a "divine Jesus". There is one Christ and Lord, Jesus - who has returned to the glory He once had with the Father.

  And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (Jn 17:5)
• 

  JosephMalik

  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1 Co 15:53,54)

  MDB,

  And this is our hope. This is the only way to enter the Kingdom and be with Christ. So?

  MDB said: Jesus was raised in the flesh, but His mortal body has put on immortality.

  Jesus was not raised in the flesh but in the spirit by God. He raised His flesh all by himself just as He prophesied regarding His temple. It was only after this death and resurrection that our Lord took on both natures you speak of here.

  MDB said: Jesus, even while on this earth, was still fully God who added to His nature a mortal body.

  On the contrary, he emptied himself and took up the nature of man. He was no longer a divine being. Immortal human nature, something our Lord gained for us in time does not mean a divine being.

  MDB said: There isn't a "human Jesus" and a "divine Jesus". There is one Christ and Lord, Jesus - who has returned to the glory He once had with the Father.

  And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (Jn 17:5)

  There you see there is a human Jesus who prayed for the divinity he once had and it would be given to him. So there would be a human Jesus and a divine Jesus when this prayer was fulfilled, a hypostasis nature that will last at least through the 1000 years promised.

  Joseph
• 

  rassillon

  drew,

  interesting subject. the trinity was the subject on which I gave my first public talk. people thought I was crazy because it is considered a hard subject, I guess I am a little crazy.

  Anyway, When I believed that JWs were "GOD'S" organization I accepted their view. I still am not a trinitarian buy my perspective on if it is important or not has changed. I do believe we as humans try to reduce everything down to the simplest absolute. We are never satisfied with an explaination. With the nature of Jesus, etal I just don't think we have enough information to make these assertions with any sort of certainty. If it were important for us to believe something it would have been clearer in the bible. If someone wants to believe it that is fine with me, if someone doesn't want to believe it that is cool too. It is too difficult for some of us to be satisfied with saying "I don't know".

  As with many other teachings which people fight over I think they are just arguments over words that benefit no one and distract from the real message of the bible and Jesus teachings.

  -r
• 

  mdb

  On the contrary, he emptied himself and took up the nature of man. He was no longer a divine being. Immortal human nature, something our Lord gained for us in time does not mean a divine being.

  Jesus was never any less God than when He was with the Father in the beginning. The Word became flesh... Emmanuel (God with us), not God changed. God is unchanging, the same today and forever. What you speek of is called "the herecy of Kenosis". The correct teaching is called the hypostatic union.

  Hypostatic Union: Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. That is, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh, (John 1:1,14). This means that in the single person of Jesus is both a human and divine nature. The divine nature was not changed. It was not altered. He is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God, second person of the Trinity. "who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," (Heb. 1:3). Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together," nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

  Jesus had all the attributes of deity while in bodily form:

  omnipotent (all powerful) – Matt 28:18; Jn 11; 1 Tim 6:16; Rev 19:6

  omnipresent (everywhere present) – Matt 28:20; Jn 1:48

  omniscient (all knowing) – Matt 9:4; Mk 2:8; 13:32 (notes); Lk 6:8; 7:39,40; 9:47; 11:17; Jn 2:24,25; 4:16-18; 16:30; 21:17; Acts 1:24; Rev 2:23
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  JosephMalik

  You keep getting God the Supreme Being mixed up with God (someone else with authority over us). You keep using God as identity not function and purpose. The word may be the same in the text but its use and application is not. Yet we know that God is used of others in the texts. And we know that God means this: 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
  2a) God the Father
  2b) Christ
  3) spoken of the only and true God
  3a) refers to the things of God
  3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
  4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
  4a) God’s representative or viceregent
  4a1) of magistrates and judges And your definition of Hypostasis union proves what? Nothing. Sure there is a Trinitarian definition for this word, but there is also a generic definition for this word and this is the way I use it. Instead of running scripture strings, quote them and explain them in detail. Only then will you be able to see how you are twisting them to fit your preconceived views. Joseph
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  elatwra

  An interesting thing I have been reading regarding this topic has to do with John 1:1 and if it even refers to Jesus at all. It is said by some that 'Logos' known by many as 'the Word' can actually be translated as meaning Gods wisdom and purpose. It is also said that the 'him' translated in this scripture (strongs #846. autos (ow-tos') can also be translated a number of differant ways including 'it'. With this concept in mind the scripture could actually read:
  
  
  In the beginning was the purpose, and the purpose was with God, and the purpose was divine. It was with God in the beginning. Through it all things were made; without it nothing was made that has been made. In it was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

  John 1:14And purpose became flesh and lived among us and we beheld his glory the glory of the only begotten of the father full of grace and truth...

  It is my opinion that no matter what you translate the word "logos" you cannot avoid it refering to Jesus.

  Tri-Gods are so common in Pagan thinking. Why not Christianity? They borrowed pretty much everything else and labeled it okay!

  Could you please give me an example of a pagan trigod? The "Does the bible really teach the trinity"? Pamphlet insists that there are many in Greek Roman and Eyptian mythology. I know greek and Roman nythology and could not find any tri-gods. Does anyone know Egyptian mythology?
• 

  Sad emo

  mdb:

  If Jesus was omniscient, how is it that he himself said that he didn't know when the end will come - only the father knows.

  On the contrary, he emptied himself and took up the nature of man. He was no longer a divine being. Immortal human nature, something our Lord gained for us in time does not mean a divine being.

  Jesus was never any less God than when He was with the Father in the beginning. The Word became flesh... Emmanuel (God with us), not God changed. God is unchanging, the same today and forever. What you speek of is called "the herecy of Kenosis". The correct teaching is called the hypostatic union.

  Kenosis is not heresy - it's a theological application, with scholars having different views (one of which Joseph Malik uses). Philippians 2 (?) says that Christ emptied himself - was Paul a heretic? My application of the kenosis theory is that Christ retained his divine attributes but, as the Son, in obedience to the Father, laid them aside, rather than 'losing' them. He could have used them - why would Satan have tempted him otherwise? He could have called the angels to save him at his trial. He could even have come down from the cross ....

  This is a very brief description but should hopefully enable you to see that hypostatic union and kenosis are compatible.