Asked my Book Study group a question......................

by enlightenedcynic 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  sir82

  A fun thing to consider is that if Jehovah could create a new body for you and dump your memories into it AFTER you died, he could as easily do so BEFORE you died. Then there'd be two of you. Or from your perspective, one you and one fake copy of you.

  If we now said we were going to kill you and let the copy live, would you say, "OK, that sounds reasonable"?

  So why is it reasonable if we change the order of events?

  Again, allow me to respond as a JW would:

  Well, in a cheap science fiction novel, the above scenario could happen. But the Bible tells us that God is loving, just, etc. It would be unloving and unjust to make a copy first, kill one, and let the other live. Since God is the only one with the power to do this and we are assured he is perfectly loving & just, the scenario presented, while theoretically possible, would never ever occur.

  (I'm just trying to see how far the argument might go if raised with a semi-intelligent JW)
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  Jankyn

  Thanks, Blondie. I'm also struck by the fact that first they point out that the Bible has no answer, then they proceed to make up an answer (based on "indications" that only they see), then they tell folks that since it's not in the Bible, we don't need to know it.

  That's a useful thing to note, because I think most JWs would skim right over the really important part there: The Bible doesn't say. And if the Bible doesn't say, then everything else is speculation.

  How can people miss the flaws in logic? Arrgh!
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  AlmostAtheist

  (responding to the mythological "intelligent" JW)

  Well, no, I didn't mean to imply that Jehovah would actually do it. But changing the order of events from "create new-->die" to "die-->create new" doesn't change the fact that the "create new" results in a copy of you, not the same you.

  It would APPEAR to be you. Everyone could believe it was you. But it would not actually BE you.

  As an example. I create a machine that perfectly duplicates objects. Down to the very molecule. I run through my machine the Mona Lisa. Which would be more valuable to collectors, the actual original or my perfect copy? Even if the original were destroyed, my perfect copy would still be viewed for what it is -- a copy.

  The Watchtower's resurrection concept results in billions of copies of dead people that will all believe they are originals. But the true originals will still be dead.

  Dave

  P.S. Just kidding about the "mythological" stuff. I know of several highly intelligent JW's. Intelligence is not an adequate defense against brain-washing.
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  Estephan

  You all seem to be thinking in humans way of logic. Remember, nothing is impossible for God. Lazarus was resurrected in his same body which had not decomposed, therefore his relatives recognized him. Jesus Christ's body upon the earth was given as a ransom by Jesus willing sacrifice, so it was not brought back in its original form, evident by the fact that those whom knew him did not recognize him after he was raised.

  Humans are able to clone living things through complex technics. How much easier would it be for GOD, who designed and created humans, to recreated you in perfection? Consider this, if you died today and were resurrected, you would still have the same thoughts and personality would you not? Jesus Christ does and so did Lazarus who still died later. Therefore Lazarus was not resurrected in perfection but imperfection. Just like Adam who was designed and created to live forever, Lazarus too, would have lived for ever.
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  sinis

  You all seem to be thinking in humans way of logic. Remember, nothing is impossible for God. Lazarus was resurrected in his same body which had not decomposed, therefore his relatives recognized him. Jesus Christ's body upon the earth was given as a ransom by Jesus willing sacrifice, so it was not brought back in its original form, evident by the fact that those whom knew him did not recognize him after he was raised.

  Humans are able to clone living things through complex technics. How much easier would it be for GOD, who designed and created humans, to recreated you in perfection? Consider this, if you died today and were resurrected, you would still have the same thoughts and personality would you not? Jesus Christ does and so did Lazarus who still died later. Therefore Lazarus was not resurrected in perfection but imperfection. Just like Adam who was designed and created to live forever, Lazarus too, would have lived for ever.

  That blantantly goes against what Paul wrote, indicating that once you die your sins are forgiven. To be resurrected he would have had a clean slate so to speak.

  Funny how the JW apologists seem to forget the book of Enoch, which USED to be canon. It clearly shows that the spirit lives on and is reserved in heaven until the day of judgement, as other books allude to. Or how about the thousands of christian writings that have gone missing from the "bible", ie destroyed by the church? Or a bigger question yet, why do you even take the limited bible as the complete bible, or even accept it when Anathasius of Alexandria, a church officer was the one who compiled the known bible of today?
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  funkyderek

  AlmostAtheist:

  A fun thing to consider is that if Jehovah could create a new body for you and dump your memories into it AFTER you died, he could as easily do so BEFORE you died. Then there'd be two of you. Or from your perspective, one you and one fake copy of you.

  From the perspective of the "fake", you'd be the copy. He would fully believe he was you, he would behave exactly as you would in identical circumstances, and every imaginable test of his identity would prove that he really was you. In fact, if you woke up and he was beside you, you wouldn't know whether you were the original or the copy.

  So where's the problem exactly?
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  AlmostAtheist

  So where's the problem exactly?

  He'd have a little pip just inside his eyelid... ;-)

  Dave
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  cyd0099

  Aatheist,
  Have you read Kiln People by David Brin?
  An interesting look inside the heads of clones and the continuity of awareness and a pretty good mystery besides.
  
  it would be the awareness that I died. that the person I was in the pre-Armageddon state is decomposing and that now I was a copy. If i chose to, I could go dig up my corpse, that would freak me out completely
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  Elsewhere

  So our dear wonderful God Jehovah is going to bring back those who have died with flawed or imperfect bodies.

  This brings up a very interesting point regarding resurrections and how it is perceived by Christians.

  The old traditional belief that most Christians are not aware of is that, as the bible says, "if one has a physical body then one has a spiritual body". Simply put, whatever condition your body is in at death is the same condition it will be in heaven. This is why the church condemned post mortem examinations, embalming, cremation and other such things... they were concerned that the people would spend an eternity in the mutilated condition. This also brings up the primary reason why some people were intentionally mutilated after death... it the body was scattered all over the country side then there was no way gawd could possibly put it back together in the resurrection ensuring that the person would never go to heaven.

  An even more bizarre side effect of this is that when previous pope's have had surgery, such as having an appendix taken out, instead of throwing it out, the appendix would be preserved somewhere and returned to the pope's body after death to ensure he was "whole".
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  Estephan

  From the perspective of the "fake", you'd be the copy. He would fully believe he was you, he would behave exactly as you would in identical circumstances, and every imaginable test of his identity would prove that he really was you. In fact, if you woke up and he was beside you, you wouldn't know whether you were the original or the copy.

  So where's the problem exactly?

  Identical twins are born, they live together yet they grow up with different peronalities.You cannot clone a personality, can you? A sheep is cloned, from that point on they are two separate sheep, with two separate personalities, correct?