by Diogenes 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
Hi everybody,
Two elders are coming round to "shepherd" me next week.
I've been reading the article available by Jon Mitchell? about Rev:7 discussing the 1980 w.t which is full of lies about Naos and Hieron.
I'm going to bring this w.t up but I know the elders will mention the scriptures in Psalms 37 and Isaiah to prove that there is an earthly paradise.
Is there a good logical way to refute these scriptures?
Thanks,
Diogenes
A paradise earth seems to be scriptural to me since God's instructions to Adam and Eve were that they make the earth a paradise and his purposes never change. As far as disproving the scriptures you cited I have heard other opinions on how they apply. Psalms 37 speaks of the meek inheriting the earth. Once in field service a Baptist told me that the meek had always inherited the earth and that this scripture was not a future promise. This had some logic to it but still it was his opinion.
If you don't believe in the idea of a future paradise earth then that is your right. However, I don't think you'll swing someone of the opposite viewpoint to agree with you since deep-rooted convictions are hard to change .
Whats up,
Two elders are coming round to "shepherd" me next week.
THE BEST THING TO DO IS AVOID THEM
I've been reading the article available by Jon Mitchell? about Rev:7 discussing the 1980 w.t which is full of lies about Naos and Hieron.
I'm going to bring this w.t up but I know the elders will mention the scriptures in Psalms 37 and Isaiah to prove that there is an earthly paradise.
Psalms 37. This is one of the best loved Psalms. David, always puzzled by the Prevalence of the Wickedness, here states his philosophy as to how to live in the midst of Wicked People: Do Good; Trust God; Don't Worry.
Is there a good logical way to refute these scriptures?
Just make sure you have a Ligidimate Bible at hand. DO NOT LET THEM SHOW YOU WITH THEIR BIBLE.
When i was hit with the sudden impact horror of my mortality in 1992 that i was not going to "live forever in paradise on earth" (and neither will any Jehovah's Witnesses alive today)
I took some measure of comfort that rotting in the ground is meant to be.
John 6:63
"The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life"-JC
I know the elders will mention the scriptures in Psalms 37 and Isaiah to prove that there is an earthly paradise
Are you sure about that?
Does it really prove an earthly paradise a la the WTS?
Well, does it?
Suggest they stick to the New Testament, that you don't believe old jewish writings have much to do with Christianity. Jesus said he fullfilled the Law and Prophets. Most of Jesus' words seem to strongly indicate and say outright that there is life forever in a better home.
Jeff
If we could transport someone from even the 1st century to our day, would not they say "paradise has arrived!"
peace,
Moshe
In my opinion, if you must discuss with them (i.e. if you feel compelled to meet with them) staying off doctrinal issues would be the wisest course. It is the course I did not follow. If you don't make the choice to avoid the subject, I want you to be ready to argue your point.
Psalm 37 uses a Hebrew term for "earth" that mean "land, country, earth, ground, etc." It is pretty plain from the context that the Psalmist was referring to the land of Israel. Particularly is this the case since the text frequently refers to an inheritance of and taking possession of the land. This 37th Psalm was written for a nation conquering its promised lands.
You might try getting them to think of the temporal context it was written in. 37:11 says, "And just a little while longer, and the wicked one shall be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be." You could read that and ask whether it is reasonable to suggest that "a little while longer" actually meant 3,000 years and more later.
You might even be able to conscientiously bring up that while all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial, all Scripture is not to have prophetic significance for every time period in history. Then you could ask why they would insist that this is going to have a greater fulfillment on us? If they bring up Isaiah, direct attention to the fact that the prophecy was for the nation of Israel, and that no Christian is recorded in the Scriptures as having moved that prophecy forward. Then ask: What is the basis for believeing it would have a greater fulfillment in our day?
But, I would recommend sticking to the discussion of "paradise" itself. In the NT the term only occurs 3 times. (Luke 23:42, 43; 2 Corinthians 12:1-5; Revelation 2:7)
In 2 Corinthians, Paul equates paradise with third heaven. Their explanation of "third heaven" is convoluted, grasps for thin air, and is easily dismissed as having no basis in Scripture. Also, it does not change the fact that "third heaven" is "other than earth," even by their explanation.
The Revelation Climax book says of Revelation 2:7, that this reference to paradise is a reference to the very presence of God in heaven. Noteworthy is the fact that the "tree of life" is pictured in this paradise of Revelation 2:7. In Genesis, fear that Adam and Eve would find the tree of life was the reason God expelled them from Eden.
In Luke 23:42, 43, Jesus tells the evildoer that the evildoer would be WITH HIM in paradise, not that he would be with the evildoer. In context, the evildoer didn't ask to be remembered "today," he asked to be remembered when Jesus got "into [his] kingdom." After that request, Jesus response would only make sense if he was welcoming the evildoer into his kingdom WITH HIM.
Given that a connection to heaven is implied in all three occurences of "paradise" in the NT, there really is no basis for belief that the 1st Century Christians believed paradise to be anything else.
I hope this helps.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Beautiful explanation AS!
Jeff
Many thanks for all your replies...
I just think the 1980 w.t is a very powerful tool and shows very clearly that the society is twisting scriptures to fit their interpretations.
Maybe I'll just sit there and plead spiritual sickness...
