ransom sacrifice question

by streets76 10 Replies latest jw friends

streets76

I’ve been lurking for the past few weeks. I was raised a JW, but was never baptized. I faded away about 20 years ago, when, at the age of 27, I decided to go to college. My mother is still a lukewarm JW. My older brother and younger sister were also raised as JWs. My sister was never baptized and faded in her late teens; my brother was baptized at 16 and is now a servant of some sort in his congregation (out of state). My father was an un-opposing non-believer.
That being said , I’d like to bring up a topic that I’ve been wondering about lately, and that is the idea of the ransom sacrifice. I’ve been out of the loop, so to speak, for a long time, and realize my thinking might be a little rusty when it comes to doctrine and so forth, but in my mind the idea that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice on the “torture stake” is puzzling.
It seems to me, when you make a sacrifice, you are actually giving up something that you really want or value. For instance, I might want to go to a much anticipated one-time-only event tonight, but my wife wants to go to a movie. In the interest of marital harmony and my wife’s happiness, I decide to sacrifice my event in favor of her movie. I can never go to that particular event again.
Now Jesus, we are told, gave up (sacrificed) his life as a ransom for our sins. But what did he really give up? He knew he would be raised on the third day, and to an even more exalted position.
Wouldn’t you or I do the same thing? But would you or I (or Jesus) agree to make that sacrifice if we knew we wouldn’t be resurrected, that in fact we’d be dead eternally?
I guess the question is, did Jesus “die” for our sins, or was he “sacrificed” for our sins? What is the current JW teaching on this?
lucifer

WELCOME to the board!!
just2sheep

streets,
you stated that jesus knew he would be raised up, but i think he believed he would be raised (or had faith in his father's promise that he would be) and it wasn't until the third day that he knew the promise was fulfilled. as far as the value is concerned ,he valued living as much as we do and he gave that up so that we could have the hope of a better future and the example of what men, and women, are capable of in their finest moment. there are so many things wrong and ugly and debased in this world and jesus died a truly horrible death but i find beauty in the fact that he acted as honorably as a person can in the face of the most horrific circumstances. i hope that in some small way we can all find some degree of that honor in ourselves. john 15:13. and despite what some might think or teach, when jesus died for his friends you and i were included.
Legolas

That is a great point Streets!
Welcome to the board Streets and Just2sheep!
Rook

God Himself became a Man, to give mankind a concrete, definite, tangible idea of what kind of Person to think of when we think of God. God is like Jesus. Jesus was God incarnate in guman form.
His appearance on the earth is the Central Event of all history. The Old Testament sets the stage for it. The New Testament describes it.
As a Man, He lived the most strangely Beautiful Life ever known. He was the Kindest, Tenderest, Gentlest, most Patient, most Sympathetic man that ever lived. He loved people. He hated to see people in trouble. He loved to Forgive. He loved to Help. He wrought marvelous miracles to feed hungry people. For relieving the suffering He forgot to take food for himself. Multitudes, weary, pain-ridden, and heart-sick, came to Him, and found healing and relief. It is said of Him, and no other, that if all the deeds of kindness that He did were written, the world would not contain the books. That is the kind of man Jesus was. That is the kind of person God was.
Then: He died, on the cross, to take away the Sin of the world, to become the Redeemer and Saviour of men.
Then: He Rose from the dead: is Alive Now: not me: not merely an historical character, but a Living Person: the Most Important Fact of History, and Most Vital Force in the world today.
The whole Bible is builded around this beautiful Story of Christ, and His promise of Life Eternal to those who Accept Him. The Bible was written only that men might Believe, and Understand, and Know, and Love, and Follow CHRIST.
Christ, the Center and Heart of the Bible, the Center and Heart of History, is the Center and Heart of our lives. Our Eternal Destiny is in His hand. Our Acceptance, or Rejection, of Him, determines, for each of us, Eternal Glory, or Eternal Ruin; Heaven, or Hell: one, or the other.
The Most Important Decision any one is ever called on to make is to Settle, in his heart, once for all, the matter of his Attitude toward Christ. On that depends Everything.
It is a Glorious thing to be a Christian, the Most Exalted privilege of mankind. To accept Christ as Saviour, Lord, and Master, and to strive Sincerely and devotedly to Follow in the Way of Life which He taught, is, certainly, and by far, the most reasonable, and most satisfactory way to live. It means Peace, Peace of Mind, Contentment of Heart, Forgiveness, Happiness, Hope, Life, Life Here and Now, Life Abundant, LIFE THAT SHALL NEVER END.
How can anyone so blind, or so dumb, as to go through life, and face Death, without the Christian Hope? Apart from Christ, what is there, what can there be, either for This World, or the Next, to make life worthwhile? We All have to die. Why try to laugh it off? It seems like Every Human Being would Welcome Christ with open Arms, and concider it the Proudest Priviledge of his life to wear the Christian Name.
In the last analysis, the dearest, sweetest thing in life is the consciousness, in the inner depths of our motives, that we live for Christ; and, though our efforts be ever so feeble, we toil at our daily task, in hope of, in the final roundup, having done something to lay, in humble gratitude and adoration, as an offering at His feet.
Rook

God Himself became a Man, to give mankind a concrete, definite, tangible idea of what kind of Person to think of when we think of God. God is like Jesus. Jesus was God incarnate in guman form.
His appearance on the earth is the Central Event of all history. The Old Testament sets the stage for it. The New Testament describes it.
As a Man, He lived the most strangely Beautiful Life ever known. He was the Kindest, Tenderest, Gentlest, most Patient, most Sympathetic man that ever lived. He loved people. He hated to see people in trouble. He loved to Forgive. He loved to Help. He wrought marvelous miracles to feed hungry people. For relieving the suffering He forgot to take food for himself. Multitudes, weary, pain-ridden, and heart-sick, came to Him, and found healing and relief. It is said of Him, and no other, that if all the deeds of kindness that He did were written, the world would not contain the books. That is the kind of man Jesus was. That is the kind of person God was.
Then: He died, on the cross, to take away the Sin of the world, to become the Redeemer and Saviour of men.
Then: He Rose from the dead: is Alive Now: not me: not merely an historical character, but a Living Person: the Most Important Fact of History, and Most Vital Force in the world today.
The whole Bible is builded around this beautiful Story of Christ, and His promise of Life Eternal to those who Accept Him. The Bible was written only that men might Believe, and Understand, and Know, and Love, and Follow CHRIST.
Christ, the Center and Heart of the Bible, the Center and Heart of History, is the Center and Heart of our lives. Our Eternal Destiny is in His hand. Our Acceptance, or Rejection, of Him, determines, for each of us, Eternal Glory, or Eternal Ruin; Heaven, or Hell: one, or the other.
The Most Important Decision any one is ever called on to make is to Settle, in his heart, once for all, the matter of his Attitude toward Christ. On that depends Everything.
It is a Glorious thing to be a Christian, the Most Exalted privilege of mankind. To accept Christ as Saviour, Lord, and Master, and to strive Sincerely and devotedly to Follow in the Way of Life which He taught, is, certainly, and by far, the most reasonable, and most satisfactory way to live. It means Peace, Peace of Mind, Contentment of Heart, Forgiveness, Happiness, Hope, Life, Life Here and Now, Life Abundant, LIFE THAT SHALL NEVER END.
How can anyone so blind, or so dumb, as to go through life, and face Death, without the Christian Hope? Apart from Christ, what is there, what can there be, either for This World, or the Next, to make life worthwhile? We All have to die. Why try to laugh it off? It seems like Every Human Being would Welcome Christ with open Arms, and concider it the Proudest Priviledge of his life to wear the Christian Name.
In the last analysis, the dearest, sweetest thing in life is the consciousness, in the inner depths of our motives, that we live for Christ; and, though our efforts be ever so feeble, we toil at our daily task, in hope of, in the final roundup, having done something to lay, in humble gratitude and adoration, as an offering at His feet.
kid-A

Now Jesus, we are told, gave up (sacrificed) his life as a ransom for our sins. But what did he really give up? He knew he would be raised on the third day, and to an even more exalted position.
Welcome to the board and excellent point! While the physical experience of his death would have been horrific, it is safe to assume that he would have known he would be coming back, to a greater position. If you accept the christian premise that jesus had been created by god along with all his other "creations" this means he would be aware, from the very beginning of his "role" in the biblical prophecy. Therefore, it would not have been an act of faith for him to believe in his resurrection, but rather, this would be pre-determined factual knowledge.
Now, considering the millions of mortal, fleshly human beings who did not claim to be the son of god, were aware that they were not going to be "raised" up in 3 days (but rather were aware of sure and certain permanent death) but nonetheless STILL sacrificed their human lives for the sake of others, it really puts the whole jesus issue into perspective. Millions have sacrificed their lives for their fellow human without thanks or fanfare. However, if you call yourself the "son of god" you are guaranteed a place in history and millions of "worshippers" for a very long time indeed. In history, everything is relative.
startingover

streets76
Good post! You have put to words my exact thoughts on the matter. The whole thing never made sense to me. As Runningman once said, Jesus didn't sacrifice his life for mankind, as the thing that makes death so bad is it's permanence. Jesus just had a bad weekend for man.
Of course I no longer believe any of it really happened.
Carmel

In order to understand the reality of sacrifice let us consider the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ. It is true that He sacrificed Himself for our sake. What is the meaning of this? When Christ appeared, He knew that He must proclaim Himself in opposition to all the nations and peoples of the earth. He knew that mankind would arise against Him and inflict upon Him all manner of tribulations. There is no doubt that one who put forth such a claim as Christ announced would arouse the hostility of the world and be subjected to personal abuse. He realized that His blood would be shed and His body rent by violence. Notwithstanding His knowledge of what would befall Him, He arose to proclaim His message, suffered all tribulation and hardships from the people and finally offered His life as a sacrifice in order to illumine humanity -- gave His blood in order to guide the world of mankind. He accepted every calamity and suffering in order to guide men to the truth. Had He desired to save His own life, and were He without wish to offer Himself in sacrifice, He would not have been able to guide a single soul. There was no doubt that His blessed blood would be shed and His body broken. Nevertheless, that Holy Soul accepted calamity and death in His love for mankind. This is one of the meanings of sacrifice.
As to the second meaning: He said, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven." It was not the body of Christ which came from heaven. His body came from the womb of Mary, but the Christly perfections descended from heaven; the reality of Christ came down from heaven. The Spirit of Christ and not the body descended from heaven. The body of Christ was but human. There could be no question that the physical body was born from the womb of Mary. But the reality of Christ, the Spirit of Christ, the perfections of Christ all came from heaven. Consequently, by saying He was the bread which came from heaven He meant that the perfections which He showed forth were divine perfections, that the blessings within Him were heavenly gifts and bestowals, that His light was the light of Reality. He said, "If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever." That is to say, whosoever assimilates these divine perfections which are within me will never die; whosoever has a share and partakes of these heavenly bounties I embody will find eternal life; he who takes unto himself these divine lights shall find everlasting life. How manifest the meaning is! How evident! For the soul which acquires divine perfections and seeks heavenly illumination from the teachings of Christ will undoubtedly live eternally. This is also one of the mysteries of sacrifice.
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 450)
serendipity

Hi streets & just2sheep! Welcome to the forum!

ransom sacrifice question

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