Parousia and invisibe presence

by Hellrider 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Hellrider

  I`m discussing something with a JW. I claim that the greek "parousia" doesn`t mean invisible presence, it simply means "presence". Isn`t that correct? Anyway, the JW comes up with this, to prove that the word has two meanings:

  You see through the scripture they are two different things.
  
  3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
  
  So we are given the signs of the presence then the final act
  
  29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

  I`m not sure what to make of this. Any greek-scholars here to help me out?
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  Narkissos

  It's too late here (2.35 am) to get into the subject but here is a valuable start:

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/gentile4.htm#does
• 

  FairMind

  Hellrider, consider the following: (1) John 14:19 A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but YOU will behold me, because I live and YOU will live (2) Acts 1:9 And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, 11 and they said: "Men of Gal´i·lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky."

  Here is the WTS' reasoning that Jesus' return will be (was) invisible:

  What

  is indicated by "clouds"? Invisibility. When an airplane is in a thick cloud or above the clouds, people on the ground usually cannot see it, although they may hear the roar of the engines. Jehovah told Moses: "I am coming to you in a dark cloud." Moses did not see God, but that cloud indicated Jehovah’s invisible presence. (Ex. 19:9; see also Leviticus 16:2; Numbers 11:25.) If Christ were to appear visibly in the heavens, it is obvious that not "every eye" would see him. If he appeared over Australia, for example, he would not be visible in Europe, Africa, and the Americas, would he?

  In

  what sense will ‘every eye see him’? They will discern from events on earth that he is invisibly present. Also referring to sight that is not physical, John 9:41 reports: "Jesus said to [the Pharisees]: ‘If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, "We see." Your sin remains.’" (Compare Romans 1:20.) Following Christ’s return, some persons show faith; they recognize the sign of his presence. Others reject the evidence, but when Christ goes into action as God’s executioner of the wicked, even they will discern from the manifestation of his power that the destruction is not from men but from heaven. They will know what is happening because they were warned in advance. Because of what is overtaking them, they will "beat themselves in grief."

  Who

  are "those who pierced him"? Literally, Roman soldiers did this at the time of Jesus’ execution. But they have long been dead. So this must refer to people who similarly mistreat, or ‘pierce,’ Christ’s true followers during "the last days."—Matt. 25:40, 45.

  Can

  it really be said that a person has ‘come’ or that he is ‘present’ if he is not visible?

  The apostle Paul spoke of his being "absent in body but present in spirit" with the congregation in Corinth.—1 Cor. 5:3.

  Jehovah spoke of his ‘going down’ to confuse the language of the builders of the tower of Babel. (Gen. 11:7) He also said that he would "go down" to deliver Israel from bondage to Egypt. And God assured Moses, "My own person will go along" to lead Israel to the Promised Land. (Ex. 3:8; 33:14) But no human ever saw God.—Ex. 33:20; John 1:18

  Not saying they're correct but it is food for thought..
• 

  TD

  It sounds like the JW is trying to draw a distinction between "Presence" and "Invisible Presence" and in that, I think he or she might be a little confused.

  JW's believe there is an important distinction between the words "presence" -parousia and "coming" -erchomai

  IOW Although Jesus has been invisibly "present" since 1914, his "coming" is still future. JW's believe Christ "comes" when he judges the nations. (cf. Reasoning From The Scriptures p. 340-342)

  ---And you are right. There is nothing in the word, parousia that suggests, let alone requires, invisibility.
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  Ginosko

  Hi Hellrider,

  As I understand the Bible gave us advice about future false profets that will teach about an invisible presence of Jesus.

  You can read about it in Mat 24: 23 - 27.

  Cordially,

  Ginosko
• 

  peacefulpete

  
  Years ago I simply used the concordance and looked up every time the word presence is used and then used the WT literature and found that in many cases they applied these passages to G.Tribulation or Armagedon. I looked at the verses themselves and found that when they referred to Jesus they consistanty applied to judgment, destruction or reward. IOW the visible Kingly stuff that Christian writers wanted to see happen. Its been a long time since doing that study, but I'm sure that anyone simply reading the passages themselves would never draw any conclusion about "invisible presence" but rather the opposite.

  As far as the "sign" thing. Just before, Jesus is heard condemning those who expected a sign of his kingdom. He said it would come without one. The words in the famous passages have been ammended here and there but the request for a sign was declined and rather Jesus is made to say that his arrrival would be seen by all from great distance like lightning and like vultures clearly seen circling a carcass. There would be events reminiscent OT theophanies like earthquakes and plagues of death and his enemies attacking each other immediately before he showed his face. Mind you there are many ways to read these sections.
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  crazies

  Fairmind wrote:

  The apostle Paul spoke of his being "absent in body but present in spirit" with the congregation in Corinth.—1 Cor. 5:3.

  The word used here for present is pareimi however, and yes the JW love to use this. But as you can see it is not the same word, pareimi is however the root word of parousia. So parousia is actually adding to the meaning of pareimi. Pareimi means:

  1) to be by, be at hand, to have arrived, to be present

  2) to be ready, in store, at command

  So does mean to be by, or to be present in spirit.

  However as we know, the apostles nor Jesus used pareimi, they used parousia and the meaning of parousia is:

  1) presence

  2) the coming, arrival, advent

  a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
  

  Parousia is from the present participle of the word pareimi, so instead of it meaning to be at hand as pareimi means, as you can see by the definition it actually means to be present, to arrive, to come.

  All these definitions by the way are taken from www.blueletterbible.org there you can also look at the original greek words if you click on the "c" beside the verse, then you can click on the greek (or hebrew) word and see the definition, you can also see all the other verses in the bible that use that greek word, that way you can get the context of how the word is used most of the time. Look at parousia, it is quite interesting how it is used the rest of the time in the bible. (strongs number 3952=parousia)
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  Hellrider

  Ok, thanks for the replies, all. Just one question: The greek word in Matthew, which the NWT has translated to "presence", is that also "parousia"? I have seen some other versions translate it "coming".. (edited to add: Oh nevermind, I think I can find out with the tip from Crazies, I`ll go look at BlueletterBible, thanks!!)
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  Narkissos

  The greek word in Matthew, which the NWT has translated to "presence", is that also "parousia"?

  Yes.

  Debate on Greek lexica can be quite messy, especially with people who can't tell semantics from etymology.

  You could try the following shortcut: Yes, Jesus does speak about his invisible presence: "I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:20). The formula "the end of the age" (sunteleia tou aiônos) is exactly that which occurs in 24:3 together with parousia: "what will be the sign of your parousia and of the end of the age?"

  Ergo, Jesus is invisibly present until his parousia.

  Then parousia, in that case, must mean something different from "invisible presence".
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  greendawn

  After many failures and humiliations due to failed dates regarding Christ's return one Adventist called Barfour tried to justify their failures by formulating the, very conveniently unprovable, invisible presence idea. And then the JWs being themselves an adventist offshoot inherited the idea through Russell who was Barbour's student for a while. When his (more precisely Barfour's) 1914 date failed he fell back on the invisible presence trickery, though he died a humiliated and bitter man two years later. For over 30 years he was preaching a visible return.
  
  Christ had always been invisibly present with his people every day, and on until the end of times.