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Amazing  Facts about the NT Bible


Historically, the Bible is a secondary support for Christians and Jews. I was raised Roman Catholic, and our tradition and practices included the Bible, but it was not a key centerpiece of our faith. The Jewish side of my family likewise have a rich history of tradition and faith that is lived, and not pinned down to every word in the Bible. When I have met with my Jewish family and friends for Bible discussion, I have enjoyed how they "allegorize" the Bible and give historical ponderings that reflect much more emphasis on personal meaning, rather than some "official" dogma.
 
The Bible was not really completely compiled and agreed upon until almost 400 years after Christ. Even then, various books, such as the "Shepherd of Hermes" were included at first, and then removed. While other books considered questionable are now in the NT Bible. The Hebrew scrolls were there, but were not commonly available to Christians except in the Synagogues. The New Testament was not there at all. Early Christians at times may have had letters shared and hear a reading, and possibly be able to copy the letters. But, it was the ancient Catholic Church (before the East-West split in 1054 AD) that eventually collected these letters and decided upon which ones were canonical and which were not. It was the Catholic Church that set the criteria as to what constituted a canonical and later on inspired book. The Catholics decision as to what should be in the NT Bible stills holds true for the Protestant Bibles today. Before the Bible was put together and made available, Christians (Catholics) largely lived by Church tradition and short creeds for memory (hence the Apostles Creed):
Pope Damasus assembled the first list of books of the Bible at the Roman Council in 382 A.D. He commissioned St. Jerome to translate the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin, which became known as the Latin Vulgate Bible and was declared by the Church to be the only authentic and official version, in 1546. [Source: http://www.drbo.org/intro.htm]
The DR (Catholic Douay-Rheims) New Testament was first published by the English College at Rheims in 1582 A.D. The DR Old Testament was first published by the English College at Douay in 1609 A.D. The first King James Version was not published until 1611. This online DRV contains all 73 books, including the seven Deutero-Canonical books (erroneously called Apocrypha by Protestants). These seven books were included in the 1611 KJV, but not in later KJV Bibles. [Source: http://www.drbo.org/intro.htm]
The whole Douay-Rheims Bible was revised and diligently compared with the Latin Vulgate by Bishop Richard Challoner in 1749-1752 A.D. The notes included in the text were written by Dr. Challoner. [Source: http://www.drbo.org/intro.htm]

Christians simply had no NT to use for over 1500 years after Christ! The Bible was not really made available in general to people to get copies until after 1611 AD. Then, the completed verification with the Latin Vulgate was not complete until 1752 AD. This must give us cause to wonder just how the Watchtower Society and some Protestant denominations can make their absurd claims about restoring "truth" in these last days (similar to Mormon claims) when in fact such could not be circulating at all, not even during the time of Christ and the Apostles, except by what was known and accepted by word of mouth, tradition, and letters that were circulated. What was circulated were far more than what we call the New Testament. An early Christian would not really have a concept of which ospel and Epistle to treat as inspired and which to treat as a nice essay. The concept of an inspired NT just did not exist.
 
So, it was eventually the early Catholic Church that declared the Bible inspired. The New Testament is a Catholic work, built upon Catholic criteria, and Catholic claims of inspiration long after the Watchtower considered the Catholic Church to be completely apostate. Essentially, if the Watchtower really thought about it, the Bible is the work of total Apostates! Some modern Protestant denominations and members acts as if the Bible just magically popped directly out of heaven from God's hand. Some groups, like the JWs, treat every word as coming from the mouth of God. Many people forget that the Bible is not with Word of God, but that Jesus Christ is the Word of God! - John 1:1.
 
Could the Bible be inspired? Yes. But, I believe that it "contains" inspired words of God, and that the Bible also contains errors and words of men. (Not all Catholics would agree with me, but the Orthodox would to a degree.) So, when the Apostle Paul says that "All Scripture is inspired of God" he was really speaking about the Hebrew Old Testament. The Eastern Orthodox recognizes the limitations of the Bible, and take a more pragmatic view than do modern Protestants, especially fundamentalists. We must be careful when quoting the Bible to understand its limitations. The Christian faith is built far more upon tradition and Church evolution than upon Biblical developments. This is a point that completely escapes and ultimately undermines the credibility of such groups as Jehovah's Witnesses who think that they have restored "truth" but in fact have done nothing more than create a fiction.
 
Is there an authority available to properly interpret the Bible? This is a tough question to discuss on JWD, as ex-JWs have all but rejected any scent of religious authority. So bare with me a minute. The Apostle also stated that no prophecy comes forth by any private interpretation, but by men born along by the Holy Spirit. Prophecy is not just foretelling the future, but also telling of God's will, and announcing God's proclamations. When Protestants read their Bible they believe that the Holy Spirit moves them to understand their Bible. This is fine to a point, but falls apart when they begin to teach their interpretations ... this is why in the west, there are so many Protestant denominations. Eastern Orthodox never had a Protestant revolt. How do we know if our understanding is an interpretation or is the product of the Holy Spirit moving us? Therefore, this is why the Apostles warned of those who would be teachers in the Church ... they bare a heavy responsibility because if they start teaching private interpretations and leading others, they will be held to account for their teachings.
 
If non-Catholic Christians are intellectually honest with themselves ... each one would go back and review all of the various Gospels and Epistles written that the Catholic Church left out of the NT Bible. They would then set up their own criteria for what is canonical, and they would make their own determinations as to what is inspired and what is not inspired. But, instead all Protestants (Jehovah's Witnesses included) accept this very Catholic work we call the New Testament. The Bible is an important and useful historical work. It details a rich history of the Jews and early Christians. But, it must be kept in perspective and not worshiped as a final authority. In fact, the King James Bible removed six books because these support Catholic teaching from before the time of Christ. If non-Catholics would read a Catholic Bible, and read the six books that the KJV removed, they will discover important history that in part clarifies Catholic tradition. This is why the Catholic- Orthodox NT has 72 books, whereas the KJV and other Protestant Bibles have only 66 books.
 
The Big Question is: Is your NT Bible the accurate NT Bible ... or is it a Protestant Corruption ... or is it a Catholic conspiracy? You Decide!
 
Jim Whitney
 
Next topics: What do you define as the Church? ... and then ... Praying to the Holy Spirit
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mavieRe: Facts about the NT Bible

Amazing,

I live close to you, let me buy you a beer.  I enjoy your posts.

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bigmouthRe: Facts about the NT Bible
That was a good summation Jim and it fitted nicely into my attention span!

This matter of the NT being put together by the Catholic Church is quite a new realization to me and you've given me a good start to research it.

One thing, have I read this sentence correctly? ;
'The New Testament is a Catholic work, built upon Catholic criteria, and Catholic claims of inspiration long after the Watchtower considered the Catholic Church to be completely apostate.'

Should 'after' read 'before'?

Thanks, Pete
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bigmouthRe: Facts about the NT Bible
That was a good summation Jim and it fitted nicely into my attention span!

This matter of the NT being put together by the Catholic Church is quite a new realization to me and you've given me a good start to research it.

One thing, have I read this sentence correctly? ;
'The New Testament is a Catholic work, built upon Catholic criteria, and Catholic claims of inspiration long after the Watchtower considered the Catholic Church to be completely apostate.'

Should 'after' read 'before'?

Thanks, Pete
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free2thinkRe: Facts about the NT Bible

Hi Jim

Enjoying your topics.

The gospel of Thomas is just a collection of Jesus' sayings - don't know if it is part of the catholic bible.

Wonder if anyone has put down the apostle's pauls sayings without the narrative.

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NarkissosRe: Facts about the NT Bible

Just my 2 eurocents on the questions as I am passing by...

'The New Testament is a Catholic work, built upon Catholic criteria, and Catholic claims of inspiration long after the Watchtower considered the Catholic Church to be completely apostate.'

Imo it means "long after the Catholic church was supposed to have turned completely apostate by the Watchtower standards".

And the Gospel of Thomas isn't part of the Catholic Bible either. The canonical differences are only in the OT (with the Deuterocanonical writings, Maccabees etc., finally validated in the council of Trent)

Back to the popcorn.

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RAFRe: Facts about the NT Bible

 

I really don't care who put what together (but lot of material are at our disposal NOW) and everyone is supposed to be attracted by what suites his state of mind or understanding I guess. That's why I can understand that the bible can be repulsive on some matters if you focus on details.

The OT is just showing mehow life is when we have to live by laws (like kids who just don't know what is right and wrong) ... AND need to follow too much humans and laws (who can contradict themselves BTW) which leads to piramidal systems = and injustice) It's all like the one who is above or already got more, have more rights (even to sin)

The WTBS likes to use OT a lot and I guess that I know why!

To me the Gospel is talking about growing up ... we don't need laws, we only need to take care (not missing the point = what is really important in everything - Charity including forgiveness for everyone and trying to forget about our Ego).


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AmazingRe: Facts about the NT Bible

Mavie: Thanks. And I hope that my next two posts will be good ... then I will have to stop this topic line, lest I be declared a total kook. E-mail me at: Amazing75@hotmail.com and I will give you my phone numbers.

Big Mouth: The Watchtower and some Protestant denominations consider the early Catholic Church to have become apostate by the late 3rd to early 4th century. The compilation of the Bible did not commence until the late 4th century. So, that is what I mean by long after they became apostate by Watchtower and some Protestant standards.

Narkissos: Yes, Watchtower and some Protestant standards.

Freethink: Yes, there is the Gospel of Thomas, and the Gospel of St. Peter (not the Epsitles of 1st and 2nd Peter that are inclued today) and the Gospel of Mary. The Espistles of 1st and 2nd Peter, Hebrews and James are among the questionable books along with Revelation that the Church was not sure about whether to include in the first place.

RAF: 

I really don't care who put what together (but lot of material are at our disposal NOW) and everyone is supposed to be attracted by what suites his state of mind or understanding I guess. That's why I can understand that the bible can be repulsive on some matters if you focus on details.
Who put the Bible together is not as important as what it says, and what is done with it.  However, because the Catholic Church is accused of being a deviated or even apostate religion by some Protestants, including Jehovah's  WItnesses and some ex-Jehovah's Witnesses, then this issue becomes a problem for them. 
The WTBS likes to use OT a lot and I guess that I know why!
Yes they do.  I am cusious as to what you thnk on why they do.
To me the Gospel is talking about growing up ... we don't need laws, we only need to take care (not missing the point = what is really important in everything - Charity including forgiveness for everyone and trying to forget about our Ego).

Good point.

Jim Whitney

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skykingRe: Facts about the NT Bible

There are a lot of points to consider. Like did Jesus really do all the miracles accredited to him. If he did other God men or Christs did the miracles first. Osiris/Dionysus Gods of the pagans were the first Jesus and their lives included raising the dead, turning water into wine at a wedding feast, having twelve apostles, being reborn by being baptised, riding into town on a Ass waving palm branches to take kingship, breaking and eating bread to represent their body, drinking wine to represent their blood, dieing on a cross, being raised on the third day. Last but not least their followers await for the triumphant return of their God man or Christ in the last days to rule the earth.

My question is why did Jesus not have the originality to come up with his own miracles and life without copying false Gods lives? Could it be that he did not do these things? Could it have been made up? Onething is for sure if Jesus Christ really did these things he was not the first man to have been given credit for doing them.

 

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jayhawk1Re: Facts about the NT Bible
Wouldn't it be nice to get a bible that included modern translations of all the texts, including the most recent find "Gospel of Judas?"
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LittleToeRe: Facts about the NT Bible

Tis a bit of an RC-biased thread there, Jim, so you'll excuse me (I hope) if I address the balance somewhat.

The Big Question is: Is your NT Bible the accurate NT Bible ... or is it a Protestant Corruption ... or is it a Catholic conspiracy? You Decide!

As Didier alludes to, the King James Version contains the same books as the Douay.  Further the JWs don't claim that the Protestants further corrupted the Bible, being content to accept that it was an improvement to have a Bible in English, instead of confined to Latin.

On the point of authentic teaching, surely you're not going to sidestep the fact that the Reformers were Catholic Priests with an RC education and all the Orthodox documents available to them?  These weren't unlearned men, and the schizm occured within the [RC] church, not as an assault from without.

Given that this was a period of time when all sorts of wacky scientific beliefs were sustained by the religious (RC) authorities, I'm sure you'll agree that there has actually been progress, rather than regress in the advancement of thought, and this was bound to have an affect on theology as well.  While there are some denominations that eschew solid doctrine and theology, this is not representative of the whole group.

Scottish Reformed Presbyterianism has been one bulwark of learning that does not simply change doctrine at whim, and has been responsible for some of the greatest theological minds worldwide (or at least in the last 400 years).  This is also to be expected, given its RC roots, even if there is a modern antipathy to said roots.  It also had a system of church government that is rooted in Pastors, Presbyters and Deacons, with congregations, councils and synods related to one another, rather than "independant".  In fact the only thing it is lacking is a "Holy See", which it holds in common with the Greek Orthodox.

As a further sidebar to the Reformed churches, while they hold to the canon of 66 books being inspired, they also acknowledge that there is some merit in the "subordinate standards" of other documents and books, including the Apocrypha and Creeds.  You will find many of the "Divines" refering to them.

Just my 2p - no skin lost

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LittleToeRe: Facts about the NT Bible

Addendum: I should also add that I agree with your introductory point about the Bible being a secondary testimony.  On that front I am quite Barthian.

 

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lovelylilRe: Facts about the NT Bible
Jim,

I don't even know where to begin. You seem to be an expert on the Roman Catholic faith and sure copied lots of information right from thier books. However, I must strongly disagree with you that the Bible is inspired because the RC church first declared it was. The Bible is inspired becasue God's word first declared it as such. He does not need any man-made organization to declare what he already declared in his word. The RC assertion that the world owes it to them for giving us the Bible is utter rubbish and it is the way the Church continues to try to assert its authority over all Christians.

The term Catholic back in the Apostles day meant "universal" only, but now it is used by the RC as a denominational distinction. The RC of today is not anything like the universal church of the Apostles day which included all those who had faith in Christ and was loosely organized, mostly in private homes. The RC's assertion that they are the only true Church and the setting up of their hierarchy began several hundreds of years after the death of the Apostles. And the catholic council that put together the Book we today know as our bible, caused more problems than it reconciled.

While I do agree with you that Christ has Always been with his church through the power of the Holy Spirit, that Church is NOT the RC of today. It is NOT any church organization, it is the individuals with faith in him alone.  The Bible is NOT a Catholic book and is for all believers in Christ no matter what denomination they are in, or even if they choose not to belong to any denomination. The RC is just another man made denomination that divides the body of Christ instead of uniting it. And the Bible is only one way for believers to get to know God. Even if we never had an "official" book called the Bible, we had plenty of writings to read from fellow believers in God, if we chose to. God primarily works with believers through his spirit and not through the words in the Bible anyway.

A great article on the RC's claims about its authority and giving the world the Bible can be found here;

http://www.bible.ca/cath-bible-origin.htm

While I have come to the same conclusion years ago that the author of the above article does, he puts it in words in a better way then I can. Peace, Lilly

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choosing lifeRe: Facts about the NT Bible

"We must be careful when using tth Bible to recognize its limitations."

Many people have put the Bible in a position of being an idol. They care more about quoting scripture and being righteous in their own eyes than showing brotherly love. The books that make up the Bible were never written for that purpose. I agree that it has its limitations.

 

 

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LittleToeRe: Facts about the NT Bible

Part of the difficulty is in defining terms.

I attempt to use the word "church" (small c) to describe the body of believers, regardless of denomination; and the word "Church" (capital C) to describe a particular denomination.

IMHO its impossible to identify any peculiar denomination as the sole owner of the title "Church", as it will depend on the context of whom you are speaking to.  When I use it locally, people will likely understand me to be talking about the Church of Scotland or the Free Church of Scotland; if I were to use it in Italy, likely they would think of RC; in Greece, the Orthodox.

But I would say that, as I'm a Reformer at heart

Lil:

The term Catholic back in the Apostles day meant "universal" only, but now it is used by the RC as a denominational distinction.

I think it's a little difficult to be that specific during the first century.  While the Apostles were around it was pretty much the case that your denomination was "Christian".  Though there were "other teachers" that attempted to form sects (such as the Nicolatians and Judaizers), the sense still seemed to be that you were with us or against us.  Every attempt was made to keep everybody together, as seen in the "Circumcision" council of Jerusalem reported on in Acts and James.

 

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LittleToeRe: Facts about the NT Bible

CF:

Many people have put the Bible in a position of being an idol. They care more about quoting scripture and being righteous in their own eyes than showing brotherly love. The books that make up the Bible were never written for that purpose.

That would be the basis for Karl Barth's position.

Unfortunately it is jsut as easy to do with a denomination, too.  Yet all are fallible.

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LittleToeRe: Facts about the NT Bible

LiL:

However, I must strongly disagree with you that the Bible is inspired because the RC church first declared it was. The Bible is inspired becasue God's word first declared it as such.

When Paul wrote to Timothy it is likely that none of the Gospels had been written down at that point.  He was evidently refering to the Old Testament, and in particular the Torah and some of the Prophets.  The RC church is the body that declared the whole corpus to be "inspired", after gathering the books and letters together for preservation.  The Protestant Churches have just maintained that position, with a few minor alterations.

 

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lovelylilRe: Facts about the NT Bible

LT,

I don't even think the word "universal" was used in the first century at all. It was a term used later on but just to identify all those in the Christian faith. The term Catholic today has a very different connotation. To me the church (ecclesia) is the believers in Christ (the people), not the building, organization or denomination. When organizations started popping up and giving themselves denominational names as Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, etc. and began to make rules and doctrines unique to them that you have to accept to belong to that denomination, they succeeded in dividing the body of Christ instead of uniting it. (by promoting a sect, i.e. RC) Lilly

 

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LittleToeRe: Facts about the NT Bible

Lil:
You're preaching to the choir - I'm a Reformer, and hence have plenty of gripes with the RC, though not enough to withhold fellowship 

That having been said (very approximate dates to follow):

  • from 33 - 65AD there was only a rather small sect that was called "the Way", later to be named "Christianity";
  • between 65 - 400 AD it was growing and exploring its understanding of theology and struggling to keep agreeable;
  • between 400 - 1000AD there was a unification into one denomination, with a few dissenters;
  • between 1000 - 1600AD there were only two almost identical denominations and most of the main dissenters had folded;
  • and since 1600 there was a failed attempt to reform the RC Church that led to schizm after schizm down to our day.

They evidently can't have been doing everything so wrong, if you hold to any concept of the Gospel being spread in a half-organised way (as did the Apostles).

 

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lovelylilRe: Facts about the NT Bible

LT,

You are right. All scripture inspired of God is talking about the OT, not the NT. I see what you mean that the RC are the first ones who declared even the NT inspired. Thank you for clearing that up. I was under the impression that the RC was speaking about the OT and the NT. The NT writers never claimed to be under inspiration anyway. They simply wrote thier testimony about Christ and his teachings, and wrote much about thier hope for the future return of Christ, and about their personal experiences living life as a Christian.

I think the only NT book that claims to have been written under inspiration and is a prophetic one (according to some) is Revelation. btw: I am sort of a "reformed" Christian myself.  Lilly

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