Baptism - The Issue of Consent - for children

The Issue of Consent

The issue of whether a person has consented to a particular action is a core part of our social relationships whether they be personal or group interactions. To participate in any social relationship a person must on some level consent to that participation. For consent to occur a person must know what it is they are consenting to and must have true freedom to say yes or no. Unless both of these criteria are present and valid true consent cannot occur.

For example, for a person to "consent" to joining a group they must be fully aware of the rules of the group. Non-disclosure of the rules before the consent is given would be fraudulent on the part of the group and would therefore make any implied "consent" invalid. This is true in all legal contracts whether written or verbal. Both parties must clearly have stated what they are consenting to before the contract is valid. With-holding information vital to the contract invalidates it. However if all the articles of the contract are clearly spelled out and one party refuses to read the articles, often referred to as "the fine print," then that refusal is taken that full acceptance of the contract is valid.

A point can be made about children and the issue of consent. In some cases children can and do consent" to certain relationships. A boy may get a job as a paperboy. He is instructed on the rules of the job and the compensation for his work. Many children fulfill this type of contract responsibly.

But in our society legal experts agree that children do not have a legal right to make certain contracts. Due to the lack of maturity and knowledge inherent in being a child giving "consent" would not fulfill the two criteria required for that consent to be valid.

In regards to a child giving consent to joining a religion such as the Jehovahs Witnesses (JWs), as a full member, this issue becomes very important. Can a children fulfill the conditions in regards to full membership in the JWs.?

Even if full disclosure was given to the adults who join the JWs (which they are not given), it is clear that children cannot. Children lack the information necessary to make an "informed" decision about the matter. They are ignorant about how adult contracts are made and enforced. More important, they are generally unaware of the social meanings of religious commitment. For example, they are unlikely to be aware of the rules and regulations surrounding religious  expectations what they are supposed to signify. They are uniformed and inexperienced about what criteria to use in judging the acceptability of any religion except the JWs. Children most often agree to certain behaviors out of fear or loyalty or a desire to please the adults in their lives. This would preclude the issue of freedom invalidating the contract. And finally, children have little way of knowing how other people will react to the experience they are about to undertake what likely consequences it will have for them in the future.

In discussing the issue of consent, socail psychologist David Finkelhor states, "For another thing, a child does not have the freedom to say yes or no. This is true in a legal sense and also in a psychological sense. In a legal sense, a child is under the authority of an adult and has no free will. In a more important psychological sense, children have a hard time saying "no" to adults, who control all kinds of resources that are essential to them. Food, money, freedom all lie in adult hands. In this sense, the child is like a prisoner who volunteers to be a research subject. The child has no freedom in which to consider the choice." In a desire to please the adults around him or her the child makes a decision based on wrong motives and inaccurate knowledge.

The basic proposition here is that child baptism is wrong because the fundamental conditions of consent cannot prevail in the relationship between a religion and a child. "It adds a moral dimension to the empirical one" (Finkelhor). Thus even if it could be shown that in many cases children were helped by religion affiliation, one could still argue that the experiences were wrong because the children could not consent. The wrongness is not contingent upon the proof of a positive or negative outcome.

Due in part to the emotions religious affiliations create, we know that these relationships often come into conflict with other kinds of roles and other kinds of social responsibilities. (This conflict becomes apparent, for example, when the JWs forbid certain social or scholastic activities with their peers.)

Growing up in a family brings a certain social stigma to a child. People in our society react with both alarm and prejudice toward a child who has been involved with the JWs (even after the child grows up). This stigma may be unfair but it does exist, and it is unfair of adults who wish it didnt to inflict such stigma on children, who cannot be fully cognizant of its existence.  Finkelhor states, "To rear a child in a stigmatized status cannot be considered a crime in and of itself, or else we would have to support laws to make it a crime to bring up a child to believe in communism."

The reality is that few adults are fully informed of the WTs rules and regulations until after they have been baptized. There is a clear set of rules for those who are not baptized and a much stricter set of rules for those who have been baptized. To allow a child to submit to this double-standard without a clear explanation of what that standard is would be fraudulent.

Children also would not be fully able to consent to such an issue due to the fact that they are still developing in their minds. What a child wants at 10 or 11 is very different from what they want at 15 or 18. For a child to give consent at a younger age when his or her brain is not even developed enough to understand certain concepts which can only occur at a later developmental stage is absurd. To hold this child to his or her "consent" would be immoral.

Copyright 2002; Lee Marsh

Edited by - Lady Lee on 10 August 2002 18:38:58

Title change for clarification

Lady lee,

This is a very nice article thank you for your thoughts.

Edited by - Imbue on 10 August 2002 23:1:39

As much as Witnesses condemn infant baptizm, one would think they would also regard baptizm of the young kids into their orginaztion with the same distain. But, that isn't so. Then, to hold them to such legal standards afterwards!

LadyLee, your article hit the nail on the head.

Lew W

Thank you for your post.  I know I did not know what I was getting into when I got baptized at 13 I only did it because everyone in my family and in the congergation keep pressuring me too.  By the time I was 18 I didn't want anything to do with it and it took me til I was 22 to leave.

Lady Lee,

It was a bit wordy, but I think it misses a main point: when Jehovah's Witnesses are baptized they agree to be a "part of the spirit-Directed(tm) organization"  (as opposed to what Jesus actually had the NERVE to say what he said about baptism.)

This legal trickery in effect, compels them to accept WHATEVER the WTS will say now, or in the future.  Or else.  If something changes and as long as they are taking part in the "organization," they must accept it.  Or else.  This has already been tested in the Courts and WT legal was shrewd enough to cover the interests of the Corporation with the newer wording in the baptism vows..  No challenges to this issue have been successfully prosecuted.  Yet.

Is it a contract?  If "yes," then minors are certainly exempt from it as they have no "capacity," that is they are not of legal age to enter into a contract.  If it is NOT a contract, then the issue is moot.  Furthermore, it is moot if the child continues to abide by Watchtower Bullshit(tm) AFTER the age of consent.

Lastly, the Courts (at least in the USA) have shied away from dealing with harm religions have done by fucking up people, even if they are kids.

The best way to avoid this problem is to never become a Jehovah's Witness.  They cannot screw up people who don't vow to serve them.  Or their various Corporations who exist only to serve themselves.

Farkel

 

Edited by - Farkel on 10 August 2002 23:56:2

Is there anyone that can post the Baptizim Q&A's ?????

Man I didn't know what the witnesses were really all about until I got out.

But when I got baptized at 16 everyone else my age in the hall was doing it, so I didn't want to be left out. I thought people would treat me even worse if I didn't do it. I really didn't want to do it, but I knew what was expected of me so I forced myself to do it.

puzzled,

Is there anyone that can post the Baptizim Q&A's ?????

I have the 80 or so questions from the old "Organized Book."  There are over 120 or so that Amazing has posted recently from the "New" and "Improved" "Organized book..  Either way, when you read them you'll see "Pharisee" everywhere.

Just after Jesus' day, people were getting baptized within HOURS of hearing the message and they didn't have to answer ONE stinking question, let alone eighty of them.

Farkel

Edited by - Farkel on 11 August 2002 1:51:59

Thank You

puzzled,

Here ya go! 

Remember:  this is ALL "Bible-Based(tm)"

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Youknowamus:  oh, all right.  But would you please take a look at the very few questions I think we should ask before we baptize someone?  I believe Jehovah has directed me to bring these to you so that we can be sure we get qualified people into our theocratic organization.  These questions are part of a handbook I've written on Organization, Kingdom Preaching and Disciple Making, which has all sorts of good rules, regulations and policies to keep the brothers in line with the Christian organization we need to set up real soon now.

Barnabus:  Yes, we'll look at them, but don't expect much more than that.

Youknowamus:  Great.  (He turns toward the door)  "ok, guys!  Bring in those four crates of scrolls outside the door."

Peter and Barnabus look over the pre-baptismal questions prepared by Youknowamus:

1. Who is the true God?
2. What kind of God is Jehovah?
3. What does it mean to know God?
4. What does the Bible mean when it says that Jehovah requires our exclusive devotion?
5. How will Jehovah God sanctify his name?  How can we have a share in it?
6. Who is Jesus Christ, and what is his position in relation to Jehovah God?
7. Why did Jesus die a sacrificial death?
8. How is the ransom an expression of God's love for mankind?
9. How does the ransom affect us as individuals?
10. What is the holy spirit?
11. How can we benefit from the operation of that spirit today?
12. Whose ideas are recorded in the Bible? Does that mean that God personally spoke or wrote it all?  Is all of it true?
13. Why should we pray, to whom, and how often?
14. About what is it proper to pray?
15. What is the kingdom of God?
16. What does it mean to "seek first the kingdom"?
17. When Christ returns, is it visibly as a man, or how?
18. How can people know when his second presence occurs?
19. What is God's purpose for the earth?
20. How will this purpose be realized?
21. What conditions will prevail on earth in God's new system of things?
22. Who is the Devil?  What is his origin?
23. Against what spiritistic practices employed by the Devil and his demons does the Bible warn us?
24. How can we protect ourselves against the influence of these wicked spirits?
25. Why has God permitted wickedness to continue until now?
26. By what means will God destroy the wicked?
27. What is the human soul?  Can it die?
28. What is sin, and how did we all become sinners?
29. What should be our attitude toward committing sins?
30. Do only those who have committed a gross sins or flagrant violations of God's Word need to repent?
31. What is death?
32. Why do people die?
33. What future hope for life is there for one who dies?
34. How many from among mankind will be in heaven with Christ?
35. What will they do there?
36. Are Christians under the law covenant with its requirements of Sabbath keeping and sacrifice?
37. What Christian quality should outstandingly characterize our relationship with our spiritual brothers and with the members of our own families?
38. In God's arrangement, who is head of a married woman?
39. How should a husband exercise his headship?
40. Is the wife whose husband is not a believer freed from his headship?
41. Who is responsible before God for the training and disciplining of children?
42. May a Christian have more than one living marriage mate?
43. What is the only Scriptural basis for divorce that frees one to remarry?
44. Must persons living together as husband and wife have their marriage legally registered with the government?
45. Why must lying be avoided?
46. What is the Christian view of stealing?
47. What is the Christian view of drunkenness?
48. What is God's law concerning blood?
49. What does the Bible say about fornication, adultery, sexual relations with another person of the same sex and other loose conduct?  May a person who is engaging in such practices be baptized?
50. Why is moral cleanness of all persons among Jehovah's people important to every one of us?
51. When difficulties arise between individuals because of serious wrongs, what is the Christian way to handle the situation?
52. What action does the congregation take when a person in its midst proves to be a persistent and unrepentant violator of God's commandments?
53. If a person in weakness commits a serious sin, but he wants to help to be restored to Jehovah's favor, what action should he take?
54. What is the proper viewpoint to have when one is Scripturally reproved?
55. What is the fruitage of the spirit, and is it reasonable to expect a Christian to manifest this fruitage in his life?
56. How should Christians view the shortcomings of fellow believers?
57. What does the Bible say about sharing with other religius groups in worship or any of the other activities in which they engage?
58. What is the only religious celebration that Christians are commanded to observe?
59. What Bible principles should guide us in determining whether other celebrations that are popular in the community are acceptable for Christians?
60. Whom does the Bible identify as the "ruler of the world" and "the god of this system of things"?
61. What is the position of Christians as to this world alienated from God?
62. What was Jesus' attitude toward all participation in the political affairs of the world?
63. How do Bible commands concerning idolatry affect a Christian in this modern world?
64. In the light of the following texts, what is the position of a true Christians in this world?
65. Is it necessary for a Christian to be subject to worldly rulers and to show them respect?
66. Must a Christian pay all the taxes demanded by the law?
67. Is there any circumstance under which a Christian would not obey the law?
68. Why are true Christians persecuted?
69. What are some factors to consider in determining whether certain types of employment are not proper for Christians?
70. What should always be our attitude toward the doing of Jehovah's will?
71. Why are Christians called Jehovah's witnesses?
72. Who or what is the "faithful and discreet slave?"
73. What is the governing body of the Christian congregation, and what purpose does it serve?
74. What attitude should Christians show toward those who serve as shepherds in the congregation?
75. Why is it beneficial to attending the meetings arranged by the congregation?
76. Why is personal study important in the life of a Christian?
77. What urgent work does the Bible set out for all Christians at this time?
78. In what various ways may this work be accomplished?
79. Is this work done in our own strength?
80. Why should one who has sincerely repented and turned around and chosen to be a disciple of Christ be baptized?

Youknowamus:  well, guys, what do you think?

Peter:  Youknowamus, I think I have the authority to say this, and so I will.  I will use the very words my Master used to me when I tried something contrary to his wishes:  "GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN!"

Farkel

How about this for a wonderful "new light".  Anyone under the age of either 18 or 21 (I forget which it is for a legal contract) that was baptised is now null and void.  So if you was either DF or DA, and baptised under the legal adult age, it was like the baptism never took place. (You are no longer shunned.)   And for those who was bapised under that age, and still wants to remain, you will need to get rebaptised.  Now I'm dreaming, but wouldn't that be nice.

Tammie,

: And for those who was bapised under that age, and still wants to remain, you will need to get rebaptised.  Now I'm dreaming, but wouldn't that be nice

No, it wouldn't be nice.  It would be insane.

Farkel

 

FWIW, I'm just glad that I was baptized long before the new improved (LOL) version of the baptismal vows was introduced. Heck, back then we didn't even HAVE a formalized set of baptismal questions (at least as I recall).

I never promised to ANYBODY to be loyal to the WTS, and I have walked away with a clean conscience, even if it did take me 40 years.

The following ages are for the US and can vary by state but are fairly representative. Do you see a pattern in regard to baptism of minors? Young people are not considered capable of being responsible for serious decisions until at least 16 and that with parental consent. The most serious decision a Christian will ever make in his or her life is to serve God. Why is it less important than these decisions? I wonder if anyone knows of a young JW who wanted to get baptized and their JW parents thought he/she was too young and the elder body allowed the young person to get baptized anyway?

Buy cigarettes 18

Drive a car 16 (with parental consent) 18 without

Drink alcohol 21 (US)

Get married 16 (with parental consent) 18 without (varies by state)

Join the military 17 (with parental consent) 18 without

Have an abortion under 18 (parental consent or notification) 18 without

Get a job under 18 (parental consent) 18 without

Sign a contract under 18 (co-signer required) 18 without

Gamble 21 or over

Farkel Your points are most definitely valid. I think they would fall into what people are not told but my main point was the legality of allowing children to make this type of contract. whether to the org or to God

I too was baptized under the older rules and my vow was to God not the org. And yes in 1969 I had to go through the old questions with the elders

When I was a kid, it was sort of a competition to see who would get baptised the youngest. I remember one really stuck-up, know-it-all, bratty girl who got baptised at 9 or 10. She got held up as such a fantastic example, so much better than us idiots who got baptised at 13. She was a complete bitch, and probably still is.

The evolution of the 2 Baptismal Vow questions has NOTHING to do with "legalities", but rather has EVERYTHING to do with the WTS teaching that newly baptized members of the "great crowd" do not receive the annointing of the holy spirit, thus should not be baptized in the name of the holy spirit, but rather in the name of the "spirit directed organization".

Lady Lee,

A bit wordy (and repetitious) but a good article with a couple of good points made.

Of course, when it comes to a pre-adult's ability to make decisions, the wt's viewpoint has always been a bit skewed. It's something I brought up with an elder just before I began my fade.

His son, at sixteen, made the decision for himself to get baptized. As we were all taught, this is the single most important decision anyone could ever make, but teens are regularly allowed to make it. As we sat in the car one Saturday morning waiting for the other group to return, I asked him how he would respond to this same son if he brought home a girl, saying she was THE ONE he wanted to spend the rest of his life with.

He'd hit the ceiling, he said. "He's not old enough to make that decision." You know where I went from there.
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BAPTISM QUESTIONS

February 15, 1964 Watchtower, pg 127:

1 Have you repented of sin with such restitution as you are able, and are you trusting in the merit of Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of your sins and the basis of your justification?
2 Have you made a full consecration of yourself with all the powers that you possesstalent, money, time, influenceall to the Lord, to be used faithfully in His service, even unto death?"

May 1, 1973 Watchtower, pg 280:

1 Have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation precedes from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?
2 On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?

June 1, 1985 Watchtower, p30:

1 On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
2 Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

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Big change in the second question over the years.

LL, I thought this last paragraph nicely summed up your points.  I was baptized at age 13, and have now and then mentioned to my JW mom how ridiculous it is to expect a 13-year-old to know what they want to do with the rest of his or her life.  To no avail of course, but the logic is there.

Farkel, I think *this* misses the point.  How do minors avoid doing something that massive peer pressure dictates they must do?  They might resist, because of inherent pubescent tendency toward rebellion, but then again they might not.  And if they don't, then do we blame it on the minor?  Or the adult who embraced it all when he or she was a minor?

It would not just be "nice," it would be right.  "Insane" only from the point of view of an authoritarian religion that has no interest in logic or ethics.  The "questions for baptism" have no bearing on this debate, as regards baptism of minors.  The question is whether minors have the right and/or capability to make a decision that impacts the rest of their lives.  They don't.  And the issue of "parental consent" on this issue is also irrelevant, when the parents are Jehovah's Witnesses and want nothing other than for their children to become baptized JW's.  Simply put, a minor does not have the capability to choose his or her life-long religion.  To suggest that a minor makes a "choice" to become baptized as a JW is a joke.  And the punchline is demonstrably NOT funny.