Another point about "between the evenings"

by WontLeave 12 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    According to the footnote on page 28 of “Bearing Thorough Witness” About God’s Kingdom:

    Prayers were offered at the temple in conjunction with the morning and evening sacrifices. The evening sacrifice was held at “the ninth hour”, or about three in the afternoon.

    This sacrifice is the one ordered in Exodus 29:38-42:

    “And this is what you will offer upon the altar: young rams each a year old, two a day constantly. And you will offer the one young ram in the morning, and you will offer the other young ram between the two evenings. And a tenth part of an e′phah measure of fine flour moistened with the fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and a drink offering of the fourth of a hin of wine, will go for the first young ram. And you will offer the second young ram between the two evenings. With a grain offering like that of the morning and with a drink offering like its, you will render it as a restful odor, an offering made by fire to Jehovah. It is a constant burnt offering throughout YOUR generations at the entrance of the tent of meeting before Jehovah, where I shall present myself to YOU people to speak to you there.

    In “Bearing Thorough Witness”, they acknowledge the time of the second sacrifice as “about three in the afternoon”, but for the Memorial, they according to the “Insight” book, under “Passover”, they insist “between the evenings” means:

    From the foregoing, and particularly in view of such texts as Exodus 12:17, 18, Leviticus 23:5-7, and Deuteronomy 16:6, 7, the weight of evidence points to the application of the expression “between the two evenings” to the time between sunset and dark. This would mean that the Passover meal was eaten well after sundown on Nisan 14, for it took considerable time to slaughter, skin, and roast the animal thoroughly. Deuteronomy 16:6 commands: “You should sacrifice the passover in the evening as soon as the sun sets.” Jesus and his apostles observed the Passover meal “after evening had fallen.” (Mr 14:17; Mt 26:20) Judas went out immediately after the Passover observance, “And it was night.” (Joh 13:30) When Jesus observed the Passover with his 12 apostles, there must have been no little conversation; then, too, some time would have been occupied by Jesus in washing the apostles’ feet. (Joh 13:2-5) Hence, the institution of the Lord’s Evening Meal certainly took place quite late in the evening.

    According to Scripture, “between the evenings” is pretty clear, as I address in my paper Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Hold the “Memorial” on the Wrong Day? I love catching them speaking out of both sides of their mouths, but the average JW is too brainwashed, stupid, and apathetic to notice or care.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    I enjoyed your paper when I first read it, and Leo's comments on it, it is strange that I felt in my bones when I was an active JW that they had probably got it wrong, and you ably showed that they have and do, and now they have exposed their own reasoning as being faulty !

    Good catch !

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Good job. I have also posted on this subject, with even more arguments made to support the traditional understanding:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/209120/1/Why-the-Memorial-Is-Held-on-the-Wrong-Day

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Of course, besides Jesus passing the bread and wine on Nisan 13--the first century Christians ate the Lord's Supper as often as they assembled.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Although you present some good points about the 14th vs. 15th argument, I've personally concluded that it is somewhat of a moot point. Even the Reasoning book admits that ...

    "Jesus did not specifically state how often it was to be done. He simply said: "Keep doing this in remembrance of me." (Luke 22:19) Paul said: "For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." " (1 Cor. 11:26) [p.269 p.1]

    Of course, they then go on to explain why their opinion about Nisan 14 is the only "right" one. But that is all it amounts to, an opinion. If Nisan 14 or 15 were really that important for the Lord's Evening Meal, why would it be left to figure that out. The dating for the Passover is specific. But the words about the Lord's Evening Meal are specifically non-specific, "keep doing this," and "as often as" you do this. And with no Christian explanation, how would the large numbers of Gentile Christians later be able to figure out when Nisan 14 (or 15) was, being far removed from the Promised Land, and no easy way to communicate with that area, and not even having the same calendar. (The Society today uses a sighting of the moon from Israel to figure Nisan 14.)

    (Personally, I think this non-specificness was a way to allow keeping the commemoration despite persecution and other problems that Jesus knew was coming upon the disciples. In a similar vein, the writer of Hebrews said about meetings, ". . .not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom. . .", rather than 'do not miss meetings.' The wording allows for difficult schedules and lives without imoposing a heavy burden on the disciples. But again, you will never hear the Society admitting to that. [Mt 23:4])

    The fact is, the admission in the Reasoning book that "Jesus did not specifically say," is only there for public consumption. You will never find the WT telling an only-JW audience that. As far as the R & F are concerned, from the WT viewpoint, it is only Nisan 14 and only once a year, and nothing else. Any JW that does differently is subject to disciplinary action.

    But looking at it from the viewpoint of what Jesus (and Paul) actually said, once-a-year and on Nisan 14 would not technically be wrong either since it also could be said to fall within the instructions of 'keep doing this" and 'as often as you do this.'

    What really condemns the Society about this is the judgmental way they view other opinions in connection with it, and the ludicrous ritual they have turned it into, and the making of it into a public spectacle, when Jesus meant it as something between himself and his disciples, and their turning it into a spectacle of class distinctions among his disciples.

    The GB, as the authors of this unique WT farce, eat and drink judgment upon themselves when they commemorate it, just like Paul said (1 Cor 11:29).

    Having said that, your write-up is well written. Appreciate your contribution.

    Take Care

  • Elephant
    Elephant

    "too brainwashed, stupid, and apathetic to notice or care."

    ...looks like you covered all possible explanations for this?...

    ...so if YOUR understanding is so consequential...why does it dissapear into thin air?

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    @Bobcat

    The points you make are some I shared. The issue with JWs is everyone is required to lean on their understanding. The backbone of the entire current JW cult is the human godhead called “the faithful and discreet slave”, which JWs have barely a vague idea of who it is. Mostly, this is because the meaning changes, as the Watchtower weasels out of logical and scriptural refutation of their ridiculous interpretation of this parable as being “the organization”.

    Once the spine of the cult is broken, the rest is simply pomp that quickly falls away. The only way for someone to truly break away from the brainwashing is to realize the magazines, the Watchtower corporation, the printing facility, the old guys on the governing body, the various committees, the elders, the overseers, etc. are all just mundane and ordinary human elements claiming God’s backing.

    Every one of their set-in-stone mandates that is shattered is another step closer to the realization that JWs are nothing but a cult run by men. This is simply one of many I have discovered and once a person’s eyes are opened to the realization that a belief commanded by the powers that be is inaccurate, suddenly evidence can be perceived that was once either rejected out of hand, downplayed, or invisible. Especially for born-ins, pulling out the underpinnings of false teachings and ill-placed faith in men and their writings is a difficult process to start, but once it has begun, becomes much easier.

    Some other issues with the JW “Memorial” are:

    • Jesus had other followers, but only partakers were invited to the Last Supper.
    • JWs have no sound basis for their insistence that all 1 st -Century Christians were “anointed”, whereas the vast majority now are not.
    • If Jesus has returned, then why is his death still being memorialized?
    • The 144k is literal, even though it's in a book full of symbolism?
    • God couldn't come up with 144k people worthy of Heaven in 2k years, but suddenly nearly all of them appear in the last 100?

    The ultimate point and purpose is that the human JW leaders are not ordained by God, but blasphemous self-proclaimed pseudo-Christs.

  • binadub
    binadub

    Why can't they see that after sundown on Nisan 14 becomes Nisan 15? It seems so obvious.
    Or am I missing something?

    ~Binadub

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    WontLeave:

    Some other issues with the JW "Memorial" are:

      • Jesus had other followers, but only partakers were invited to the Last Supper.
      • JWs have no sound basis for their insistence that all 1 st -Century Christians were "anointed", whereas the vast majority now are not.

    I appreciate all your comments. Just as a sharing of thoughts, I wanted to throw out some of my thoughts on the two points above from your comments.

    On the 1st point, it was the apostles only that were invited. (I'm sure you already knew that) It was probably impractical to try to have all the disciples in one meeting room for the Passover. But I'm thinking that Jesus had just the apostles as a way of representing all the twelve tribes of the Israel of God. From that, the question of partaking would be a matter of who is represented by those twelve "tribes." (Cmp Mt 19:28)

    On the other point about the anointed: I have a thought. It is just theoretical at the moment. But I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that all Christians are "anointed." As I said, the idea is still in the research phase, but if this were the case it would basically close the one last loose end in my mind about matters relating to the New Covenant, being born again, etc.

    The idea is that all Christians are anointed to tell good news like Jesus said of himself when he was reading from Isaiah 61 in Luke ch.4. In effect, all Christians would serve as a sort of priestly class to the rest of the world in a manner similar to how the entire nation of Israel was to serve as a witness to the other nations.

    I think the Society is caught up in the idea that kings were anointed. The high priest was also (I think). But other priests were not (I think). So the Society imagines that "anointing" can only be for that purpose, and none other. Isa 61 proves otherwise. But as I said, it is still in the research phase. Still, so far, I haven't found anything that would rule out this possibility - so far, anyways. That's why I'm being tentative at the moment.

    At any rate, take care and thanks for your comments.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    TWO CRITICAL ISSUES BEING MISSED BY ALL:

    1) Insight Book, Vol 1 under "day" page 592 says: "The Hebrews were not the only ones who reckoned a day from evening to evening; the Phoenicians, Numidians, and Athenians also did so. The Babylonians, on the other hand, counted the day from sunrise to sunrise; while the Egyptians and the Romans reckoned it from midnight to midnight (as is commonly done today)." Note it is a documented historical fact that the Egyptians counted their day from midnight to midnight. Question is, while the Isralites were in Egypt, did they do the same thing? The answer is: YES! I reflect on their concept that "evening" began when the Sun began to set at noon. If you conceive that in the concept of the Sun's travel around the earth that it begins to "set" begins at noon, then you would conceive that it must begin to rise at midnight. Thus midnight, to you, would clearly have the concept of a new day or new"morning" at least with respect to the DATE. Thus the Israelites when they left Egypt had a concept of two evenings, one beginning at noon, the other at sunet, and two mornings, one beginning at midnight and the other at sunset.

    If so, then this solves the issue over the confusion of Nisan 14 vs Nisan 15 in connection with the seder meal vs. the solemn assembly. That is, if you follow Jewish tradition regarding the passover meal itself, it ends specifically at midnight. Historical references as pointed out by Leolaia clearly shows the lambs were sacrificed from 3 p.m. But the seder meal itself was not eaten until after sunset. The key point here is, though, that if the Israelites were following Egyptian tradition to change the date from the 14th to the 15th at midnight, then it was still Nisan 14th from sundown to midnight. Thus passover was eaten on the 14th until midnight, but the Israelites, that same night, are recorded as leaving on the 15th.

    So that is a critical part of where the confusion is for many, the presumption that the Israelites changed their date at sunset when they began their sabbath day. Is this the correct concept though?

    Of course! We all know the same night the Israelites ate passover is the same night they left Egypt. But they left Egypt on the 15th. The WTS, though, correctly notes many refereces that the passover seder was eaten on the 14th. That is precisely correct. Only the 14th extended up to midnight when that meal ended. In that way, you can eat passover on the 14th and still leave Egypt the "same night" on the 15th. The WTS ignores the scriptures that clearly show the Israelites left Egypt on the 15th and focus on the passover being eaten on the 14th, only they believe the date changes at sunset.

    Thus they end up celebrating passover on the wrong day. When the Jews celebrate passover on the 15th per their calendar, like every sabbath day, they actually begin that day at sundown the previous day. Passover to them is not just the seder meal, but also the solemn assembly commanded to be celebrated on the 15th. So just as they identify the sabbath as Saturday, they actually begin that sabbath day on Friday after sundown.

    So that's another point. Jews actually eat the passover meal the previous day from sunset to midnight on the day that appears on their calendar.

    Further confirming the date change at midnight is Exodus 12:18 "In the first month, on the FOURTEENTH day of the month, in the evening, you are to eat unfermented cakes down til the twenty-first day of the month in the evening." Thus the seven days of UFC are 1-14/15th, 2-15th/16th, 3-16th/17th, 4-17th/18th, 5-18th/19th, 6-19th/20th, and 7-20th/21st. See? Eight calendar days but only seven ceremonial days. That's because the first part of every day belongs to one date but ends on another date that changes at midnight. This solves all the issues and confusion over 14th vs 15th. No problem eating passover on the 14th up until midnight and then leaving Egypt on the 15th.

    2) Note how the WTS twists Luke 22:7 which clearly states: "The day of undermented cakes now arrived, on which the passover [victim] must be sacrificed; 8 and he dispatched Peter and John..." Now. When did he dispatch the two disciples? Clearly it was earlier that day since one of them had to take the lamb to the temple to be sacrificed beginning around 3 p.m. Even so, it was not until after sundown that Jesus and the other disciples arrived to eat the passover meal, which was eaten from sundown until midnight. Key point here is that the day the disciples were sent out was a different day the passover was eaten! The WTS though claims that the 2 disciples were sent out on the 13th! WRONG. This directly contradicts Luke 22:7 that clearly shows they were sent out the day the lambs were killed. Now note how easy that works when you have the correct understanding,.

    Jesus could send them out say in the morning where they begin the prepare the meal. At some point one of them, likely Peter, takes the lamb to the temple to get in that long line so the priests could slaughter the lamb. When he returns, the lamb is quickly roasted and readied for the passover meal that evening. The lambs are killed on Nisan 14th, a day of preparation. But when sunset occurs, a new day begins. This day is a sabbath day, the first day of UFC. Even so, it remains the 14th until midnight. So see how that works when you have the correct understanding? You can send out the 2 disciples on the day the lambs were killed, Nisan 14th, and still eat passover on the 14th, yet celebrate the solemn assembly the very same day on the 15th. Thus when the Bible commanded not to leave anything from the meal "until morning" it was a reference to midnight. When it commanded not to leave the homes until "morning," it was also a reference to midnight. So even though they left at night after midnight, they did not disobey that command not to leave until "morning", since morning for them back then was the same as morning for us, which begins at 12:01 a.m.

    A further note here is very critical. PASSOVER IS EATEN ON THE 1ST DAY OF UNFERMENTED CAKES, A SABBATH DAY! Once you realize that passover is eaten on the 1st day of UFC, which is a special sabbath day, then you know Jesus could not have died the same day he eats passover, and you know he was arrested on the 15th. So what day of the week did Jesus die? Two criteria:

    A) He must die on a Thursday because he is in the tomb for "three nights" (Matthew 12:40). We know he rose on a Saturday night, so this is academic. If Sataurday night was the third night, then two nights earlier is the first night: Saturday, Friday, Thursday.

    B) He must die on a day of "preparation for passover", that is, a preparation day prior to one of the two special "high sabbaths" of passover, one of which was the 15th and the other the 21st, the 1st and 7th days of UFC. Since The special days of preparation just prior to these dates would be Nisan 14th and Nisan 20th.

    So our only question is, in 33 CE, was Nisan 20th a Thursday? The answer is, of course: YES!

    How does that work out with the rest of the context of his death? Well, he would be resurrected a week later. After his resurrection he was around for 40 days then rose. Pentecost is 50 days after the 15th. So those in the upper room would have been up there waiting for holy spirit for 10 days! But if he rose the following Sunday, they would have been in the upper room for only 3 days! See how that fits the context of Pentecost much better than when you have Jesus rising a week earlier than he actually did?

    SO IN SUMMARY:

    1. The passover seder meal is eaten on the sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes, which begins on Nisan 14th after sunset, from sundown to midnight, after which the DATE changes to Nisan 15th. Thus Jesus was arrested on Nisan 15th, early Saturday morning in 33 CE.

    2. "Between the two evenings" is a specific reference to around 3 p.m., the hour Jesus died on the following Thursday, Nisan 20th, after which he spent parts of "three nights" in the grave, which were Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night, the night he rose.

    3. Otherwise, in comparing and harmonizing scriptures, when the bible refers to "evening" it can mean any time from Noon to nightfall. Further, references to when the sun is going down can also be an exchangeable reference to after noon, which is the end of the day. The normal Jewish day begins and ends at NIGHTFALL, not sunset. Only the sabbath days begin at sunset but also end at nightfall. Please confirm this if you wish. This means the sabbath day is about 1 hour longer than the normal day, and "preparation" is shorter, having given its "evening" to the sabbath. The sabbath day is holy and there is a specific beginning and end to a sabbath day. The sabbath ends officially when a candle is lit ending the sabbath, which is at NIGHTFALL. The sabbath day traditionally begins about 18 minutes before sunset.

    What the Samaritans and Kariate Jews did after the temple period ended is irrelevant. We know in the 1st Century, the Jews took their lambs to the temple and they were killed from the "ninth to the eleventh hours" which in no way contradicts the context of the gospel account. But if Jesus ate the traditional passover, which he did, then he was arrested on the 15th. The WTS is blindsided by needing Christ to fulfill being the passover lamb and somehow, to them, as long as he dies within 24 hours of Nisan 14th, that is fulfilled. Well, Passover was a full week with two special sabbath days, so he still would be considered the passover lamb if he died anytime that week. Apparently, the fulfillment parallels the type of day and the time of the day of the sacrifice. The lambs were killed at 3 p.m. on the 14th, Jesus died at 3 p.m. on the 20th. The 14th is a day of preparation, the day before a sabbath; Nisan 20th is a day of preparation. That's enough to fulfill his connection with being the passover lamb.

    Thanks, one and all for your comments. Clearly this can be a confusing issue when so many references are "lost in translation" as far as Jewish tradition goes.

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