Doug Mason
Post 372
My reply to your fictitious dialoque:
You misconstrue the reading and meaning of Jeremiah 25:11-12. The parties to this prophecy include the land of Judah, the nations and the king of Babylon. The text simply states that Judah would become a desolate place during which it would be in servitude to Babylon along with the nations for a period of seventy years. After the fulfillment of that period Babylon also would receive its judgement as had Judah and the nations which was desolation. Simple. Nowhere does Jeremiah end the seventy years with the Fall or Destruction of Babylon in 539 BCE or some later date in history.
Jeremiah 29:10 The phrase 'le +Babylon' can be properly rendered numerous ways because the Hebrew preposition has a wide semantic range. The NWT along with the KJV endorsed by your SDA colleagues says 'at Babylon' which fits the context better because it was in Babylon that the exiles were located and had to remain until the seventy years ended. The seventy years belonged to Judah alone and not to Babylon or the other nations because it was a punish for their sins against Jehovah as prescribed by the Law.
You certainly do 'muddy the waters' by means of your 'two stream' model which purports to explain the nature and timing of the seventy years. You express the view that the seventy years amounts to Babylonish domination but you cannot determine precisely at what event or date should begin this historic period.You readily determine that the seventy years ended in 539 BCE but you refrain from giving an exact date for the beginning. Fuzziness abounds for all to see.
Your exegesis of matters fails to understand what and how the prophecies of judgement by Jeremiah, his contemporaries and predecessors involved. Judah and Israel were respectively to be punished by being plundered by foreign powers with dedtruction of their cities and lands. With Juah as with Samaria long before had the its capital, land and temple brought to utter ruin. Historically, Judah suffered this fate completely in 607 BCE.
In Daniel 9:2 Daniel certainly understood that the seventy years was not then yet fulfilled and were soon yet to be fulfilled. He understood two things about the seventy years: Its length was to be precisely seventy years and that it was a time of punishment of Judah for their sins as shown by his subsequent prayer of repentance climaxed by the angelic response by the prophecy of the seventy weeks of years.
Daniel does refer to the 'devastations of Jerusalem' and he describes further that these 'devastations' amounted to desolation of the land, temple and city in verses 16-18. By themselves chorbah andshamen do not require total devastation or depopulation but such meanings are certainly possible and lie with their respective linguistic domains. What ensures the totality of meaning is not the words themeslves but other defining descriptions or metaphors used by Jeremiah such as 'without and inhabitant' etc.
Desolation goes hand in hand with exile which also goes hand in hand with servitude. These events are the result of an invading army as all of history attests. Exile-Desolation-Servitude are all described by the prophets and historians of the Bible regarding that seventy years.
When Jeremiah addressed his letter to the Exiles in Babylon as in chapter 25 the seventy years had not then commenced because it wasstill future as shown by the English future tense 'will' which no doubt is what the Hebrew text suggests. The land was not then desolated because the land was still populated being only partially invaded by Neb.
There are many different translations of the Hebrew for 25:11 and such variations can put the emphasis where the interpreter seeks. The linguistics of this verse is variable. This means that this verse must not be understood in isolation but in the context of all other seventy year references. Furuli in his first voume page 83-84 lists three distinct translations of this verse.
Being on the Aged Pension is certainly a financial handicap and that will be my experience in five years time. However, if you wish to debate these issues and research as well then you must have resources. This means either buying, borrowing or copying but that is the way it is and if you cannot be in this game then be content to be a observer.
Josephus certainly attests to the fact in many places that the seventy years was a period of exile-servitude-desolation from the Fall to the Return. This is also confirmed by the quote wherein Josephus describes that at the fifty year mark of the seventy year period, the Temple lay in obscurity. The fifty years requires interpretation otherwise it contradicts the many other references to the seventy years. I believe that the Temple observation that it lay in obscurity for fifty years is very relevant and fits very well with what Josephus himself said regarding Judah, Jerusalem and its Temple.
scholar JW
