When did people of the Great Crowd start to appear?

by wizzstick 79 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AnnOMaly

  -And when the Great Tribulation was relocated to some indeterminate point in the future in 1970, the Great Crowd doctrine was salvaged via the notion of the imminence of the end. This joined it like a siamese twin to the pre-95 understanding of a 'generation' and that can't be undone simply be redefining the word.

  Also, the 'great crowd' of 'other sheep' became disconnected from the timing of the 'sheep and goats' separation (underway from 1918) when, in 1994, that separation became a future event.

  Two key lynchpins of the doctrine have been uprooted: the periods of the tribulation and the judgment/separation.

  Therefore, one has to ask (and my question is still unresolved as far as JW theology is concerned): If all true Christians were 'anointed' in the first century when the Bible canon was completed; if there was only one destiny for first century Christians, WHAT CHANGED AND HOW?

  Oh, and it's worth considering this:

  (Acts 21:17-20) . . .. 18 But on the following [day] Paul went in with us to James; and all the older men were present. 19 And he greeted them and began giving in detail an account of the things God did among the nations through his ministry. 20 After hearing this they began to glorify God, and they said to him: “You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are* among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law.

  * Lit., “myriads; tens of thousands.”

  That is c. 57-60 CE. Tens of thousands of Jewish Christians. Do the math, huh?
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  prologos

  ANN, of course, the early christian hope was one: everlasting lfe.

  the idea that they are all/will be RULING next to Christ is the WT fallacy.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  JWs argue that, while there is one 'hope' (everlasting life), there are two 'destinies' (earth, heaven). Two destinies for 'Christian era' Christians cannot be deduced from the NT, as far as I can see.
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  prologos

  ann let God decide where the destiny is

  2 references for that:

  1)Hebr. 12; 22, 23 the hebrew convers had only "-- APPROCHED-- the Congregation of the FIRSTBORN [one] ie. the congregation of the SEALED 144k still on earth. so, if they were no part of the anointed what were they. OS already present then?

  2) Peter: " WE are a waiting ----- New Earth where rightiousness ---."

  Jesus " the meek will inherit the EARTH."

  Jesus: " --you will be with me in paradise", surely not among the 144 000!

  Within the concept of everlasting life both destinies were present. but there was one hope.

  The rule with Christ is a totally different thing. Even Jesus said it was not for HIM to make such assignments much less WT. "partakers" praxis.
• 

  wizzstick

  Wow. What an eye openng thread. Seriously, I've learnt more here in 24 hours, than I have in the last 25 years of being a JW.

  So in JW theolgy do the 'hopes' run like this (have I got it right?):

  • From Abel to 33CE it's 'Other Sheep'
  • From 33CE - 1935 it's 'annointed only'
  • From 1935 to present it's two hopes 'Great crowd'* and 'annointed'

  (*However great crowd is a misnomer as they are the ones that come out of the GT, and if ,for example, the GT is 100 years away then actually all who are alive today are actually other sheep without realising it.)

  Is that right?
• 

  AnnOMaly

  prologos:

  OS is most likely Gentile Christians, IMO.

  The crowd that Jesus addressed when he said 'the meek shall inherit the earth' is the same crowd he addressed when he said the pure in heart will see God, the kingdom of heaven belongs to the persecuted, and the peaceable will become God's sons. You're not suggesting Jesus had two destinies in mind for the same audience?

  'Paradise' refers to heaven in the other 2 NT occurrences of the word (2 Cor. 12: 2-4; Rev. 2:7). Are you suggesting Jesus had in mind two different Paradises (cp. Rev. 2:7 with Lk. 23:43)?
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  prologos

  ann, Jesus also told the 11 or 12 at/or after the last supper that he would not drink wine until he returned in HIS KINGOM, they would eat and drink at his table. In John 6 he said partakers would have everlasting life ( not immortality) and be resurrected, so, the way I see it,

  Christians from the word GO! had basically an earthly hope/destiny. Restoration of the ideal paradise condition through the new covenant. all of them.

  forget about the OS. its a wt fabrication.

  Think 12 tribes of ISRAEL, now the ISRAEL OF GOD.

  OUT of these worshippers of God that had / have a physical hope, (I am not ruling out resurrection anywhere) are

  SEALED 12x 12000 to be closely with their fellow martyr, Jesus the Christ.

  Nowhere in the bible are there only 144 000 anointed. try to find it.

  There are 144 K SEALED ones, two totally different concepts, differentiated by scriptural terms.

  Since the sealing started with the first martyrs after 0033, OUT OF the earthly (back to Eden 1 class),

  There must have been so called OS en masse in the early congregation. think about it :

  of the BILLION + partakers of Christians since Jesus' day, how many will not end up next to him as per Rev.14?

  for what its worth, my take on it. glad to put this concept to scrutiny and questions.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  • From Abel to 33CE it's 'Other Sheep'

  w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers

  Technically speaking, is there a difference between the Biblical terms “other sheep” and “great crowd”? ...

  ... In summary, we might remember “other sheep” as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a “great crowd” with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the “other sheep,” and they are part of the “great crowd” as well.

  • From 33CE - 1935 it's 'annointed only'

  Yes, pretty much. An earthly class did appear before then but they weren't identified with the 'great crowd' which was, back in the Russellite era, another spirit-begotten, heavenly class

  • From 1935 to present it's two hopes 'Great crowd' and 'annointed'

  Yep. See above.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  prologos, I'm not making this a heaven vs. earth thing, as far as destiny goes. I think the NT teaches one destiny and, just as Jesus inherits heaven and earth, just as there is supposed to be a renewal of the cosmos (new heavens, new earth), and Christians are supposed to be co-heirs with Jesus, they somehow inherit the whole lot. 'Heaven' will no longer be walled off and they will be privy to those realities as much as the physical ones (e.g. Rev. 11:15-19).

  forget about the OS. its a wt fabrication.

  Actually, Jesus brought it up ;-)

  Nowhere in the bible are there only 144 000 anointed. try to find it.

  True. 144k is a symbolic number in a book full of symbols and symbolic numbers. I think the best interpretation is (IMO) that it represents a perfect number, the people of God in their entirety who have been saved, and is synonymous with the great crowd. One group seen from different perspectives.
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  prologos

  ann, look too at wtaugust 15, 2009 page 8, par.4 quote:

  "---"the twelve tribes of Israel", that is the world of Mankind outside the heavenly ruling class"---

  So wt in their confusion realise that the 12 tribes are earthly.

  since the "ruling class" comes OUT OF the earthly class, "sealed out of" there must have been, and there was the earthly class present in the early congregation of Stephen etal.

  ruling class out of the earthly class now?: wt February 15 1998: "-- if a spirit begotten needs to be replaced, ---- God would give the heavenly calling to someone whose faith had been exemplary in rendering sacred service---" as a non-anointed. socalled OS, but according to the only reference to choice:

  The sealed are sealed OUT of the 12 tribes.

  In other words, Wt went wrong when they called the 12 tribes of spititual ISRAELITES OS.

  To be an Israelite was a glorious thing .

  Jesus said : See, an ISRAELITE indeed!!

  It would have been terrible if WT admitted that instead of lowly animals, the Brothers & Sisters were actually somebody, citizen of the ISRAEL OF GOD. we cant have THAT can we? no,

  we will invent the concept of OS , the other -S. to prevent that.

  knowledge is power and WT does not want you to have either.