I'm not pleading to do that at all, Bonsai. Specifically, I'm talking about the belief in God and morality. The main concept is that a person can trust God and have just as much morality as anyone else.
looter
JoinedPosts by looter
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Simon you are right they can be immoral, a lot of them. But so can atheist and pretty much anyone. I was particularly looking at it in the way that all parties are moral even taking into consideration the flaws of each. On the other hand, it does seem that there are a lot of blasphemers who operate on their own corrupt impulses under on God's name.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Thank you KateWild. As for my previous situation, it has gotten a lot better and worse at the same time. My father since then has calmed down and treated me normal because he saw that my mother would get no better. Unfortunately, he got injured and now has to wear 2 knee braces which sucks because sometimes you think if you would have just got baptized, non of this would have happened.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
A Christian believer can have all the virtuous codes that a nonbeliever has, cofty. Of course this doesn't include all the horrific acts that people claim is justified by God. What I'm trying to say is that two people that have very similar values and morals but have a different method or approach to reach those same standards. It isn't gentle to include all Christians in a certain like when there are some that have completely rational values such as yourself.
But certain believers will always spurn an atheist's way of thinking not because they are childish but because the sole reason why they have good standards is perhaps because of a God they trust. There has been some evidence that believing in God can help block anxiety and minimize stress in certain people. I personally don't like that because they only believe in God because of that not because of genuine certainty. That's unfortunate for them but that's how their brain is wired.
"Of course in reality christians don't actually get their ethics from some absolute external standard. They mostly reason on consequences just like non-believers but they then go back and superimpose god onto decisions they have already made. God is the ultimate sockpuppet." Not all. Most Christians do not believe God to be false. There are some that use him for their diversion, but we're not talking about those. We're talking about the high-minded. The ones that actually know it's wrong to murder. The biggest point I'm trying to make though is that just like believers believe there is a God and he is the splitting image of right and wrong, atheists to believe in a complimentary morality even if it's highly disputable between each perspective. The two sides just have an enormous distinction in assumption.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Outlaw, there's usually two primary positions that most occupy. That is pretty reasonable as most people fall on either side and a good volume for the edge. We have to remember that it takes two to argue and I've seem countless scrimmages of this not just on here, but everywhere. We do not have the supernatural ability to look into someone and see which of these skeptics they are. We must use discernment by looking at what they say and how they say it. If someone starts off with an angry ad hominem attack and inherently refuses everything some person say as the babbling of idiots and morons, then that person has revealed themselves.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
In reply to redvip2000, It's never been easy for me to convey what I think but that was my fault for not writing that sentence right. What I was said was how cofty said all Christians believe in Jesus and I disagreed with him. As for the bible, your position on this is respected but Christians see value in it and there really isn't anything wrong with that unless they are trying to murder folks and or doing terrible acts.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Yes. Every Christian believes that their God is the image of righteousness. But what I'm saying is that everyone has their own image of morality even if it rejects the belief in God. Not everyone is completely rational because we're not robots or machines. Just like we believe in logical thinking, there is a certain conception that we submit ourselves to since we are only human beings. Absolute and objective morality are very similar because in both, each party assesses candor to what they believe to be true based on their own personal perspective. It's just that one appoints a supreme deity and the other doesn't.
You say that you aren't trying to find any moral standard yet you say, "That means that good and bad are assessed against the consequences for the well-being of conscious creatures. So there are real moral truths.", which means that you feel you have found an ideal moral truth in your eyes. There is hardly a difference in that and absolute morality.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
That's true cofty in a lot of cases. But anyone can be immoral and that was the viewpoint I had in that that each side is equal and generally wants to do the right thing. Not every Christian believes "essential good out there somewhere against which everything must be measured" as there are some that believers that don't put that in their devotion to all that is goodness. And I wouldn't say it's childish to believe that so much as it's intuitive to believe or wonder that something else is out there because everyone has their own view as you do yours.
You mentioned that Christians have filled in on you about what they felt was rightful decimation. Obviously, it's not. But I think the mistake people make is placing all Christians in that category when all atheists aren't the same even though they may believe in similar principles. To be honest, absolute morality can be tied in with objective morality but like you said they are different. But to say that all Christians possess objective morality such as those you mentioned isn't true.
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251
God is Real in Principle
by looter innow the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times.
now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words.
our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves.
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looter
Now the majority of people nowadays do no go by the hope of old times. Now the reason for this is important and goes beyond mere words. Our culture sees ethics especially national or civil politics as the rules and standards by which we guide ourselves. These rules of conduct are external and can be described and discussed in a lot of ways. It seems that the vast outlet one by one possess there own idea from an endless multitude of opinions. Now these are the rules by which we choose how to behave and by which we sometimes judge others. Since this is basically the core of what everyone is trying to edify, everybody can be said to be moral in there own way unless they hold a motive of abolishment or taboo. Atheists in particular invariably adhere to some standard of conduct as it is just what human beings do.
But it is precisely this that sets atheists apart. What truly makes them look immoral in the eyes of believers of God. The nature of a non believers life is not rightly described as the adherence to an external set of norms and standards even if those norms and standards are described as being logical and true to the human condition. The immoral life of atheists is a different mode of existence and not described so much by what it does as by how it does. This special life is not distinguished by its behavior. If this were not so, then an atheist behaving like a Christian and manifest worship would seem to be a Christian. We can put this objectionably in that they presumably cannot describe how it is that they differ other than to say that they choose to believe certain things about God, life, earth and the universe. But is the endless phenomenon of the earth's events including all natural occurrences and even Christ's death only to give us certain ideas? Well, if the doubtless unmoral life is not about behavior, what is it about?
In other words, an atheists chooses to believe what they want but reject the notion that has helped boroughs of people for centuries. You can even argue without belief in God we wouldn't be where we are as people or society today at all. Whether you believe or not, it's hard to deny that he has helped people to persevere through our harsh past. Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with their refusal to surmise God whatsoever but it is not the rejection of God that makes them seem immoral to most Christians today. However, it is the rejection of the greater and higher good. This seems to be an enormous misunderstanding that leads to crude and wasteful arguments. This greater good that is mentioned is based on moral obligation. It does not mean merely that we can find people around who claim to have certain duties. Nor does it mean that there have been many people who thought they were obliged to do certain things like clothing the naked and to avoid doing others like committing adultery.
The premise is claiming something more namely, that we human beings really are obligated that our duties arise from the way things really are, and not simply from our desires or subjective dispositions. It is claiming, in other words, that moral values or obligations themselves and not merely the belief in moral values are objective facts. And the way things really are, are perceived adversely. All of us on this site know this in spades, of course. Now given the fact of moral obligation, a question naturally arises. Does this picture of the world presented by atheism accord with this fact? Now truthfully, the answer is no. Why? There is a certain tunnel vision that guides the ultimate number of people not just on this site but primarily everywhere. This is the idea that either the atheistic view of reality is correct or the religious one involving God. Atheists never tire of telling that all are the chance products of the motion of matter, a motion which is purposeless and blind to every human striving. Now this is greatly reasonable and is sure a thought that everyone should determine for themselves no doubt. Given this picture, in what exactly is the moral good rooted? Moral obligation can hardly be rooted in a material motion blind to purpose. Can it?
Well we know this certainly that it is in the human state to believe we have a reason to inhabit this earth. But suppose we say our purpose is rooted in nothing deeper than human willing and desire. In that case, we have no moral standard against which human desires can be judged. For every desire will spring from the same ultimate source which would be purposeless, pitiless matter. And what becomes of obligation? According to this view, if I say there is an obligation to feed the hungry, I would be stating a fact about my wants and desires and nothing else. I would be saying that I want the hungry to be fed, and that I choose to act on that desire. But this amounts to an admission that neither I nor anyone else is really obliged to feed the hungry—that, in fact, no one has any real obligations at all. Therefore the atheistic view of reality is not compatible with there being genuine moral obligation in any form. This is why the typical atheist perspective, not all, of reality does not fit the ethical duty that humans are purposed to have. Unfortunately, this has not shown that ethical subjectivism is false or if there are even a such thing as objective values.
Furthermore, the argument assumes that there are objective values and it aims to show that believing in them is incompatible with one picture of the world, and quite compatible with another. Those two pictures are the atheistic and materialistic one, and the broadly speaking religious one. Now truthfully, there is not an objective picture as they are both viewpoints in their own right that either work with some people or not. Granted, if ethical subjectivism is true, then the argument does not work. However, almost no one is a consistent subjectivist. Many think they are, and say they are until they suffer violence or injustice. This explains why a lot fall in to mental traps because they maybe were determined to never steer that viewpoint. In that case they invariably stand with the rest of us in recognizing that certain things ought never to be done. And for the many who are not and never will be subjectivists, the argument can be most helpful. It can show them that to believe as they do in objective values is inconsistent with what they may also believe about the origin and destiny of the universe. If they move to correct the inconsistency, it will be a move toward the religious view and away from the atheistic one.
Nowadays, however, that view does not conclude to God but to some vague religious view. It is compatible, for example, with Platonic idealism, and many other beliefs that orthodox Christians find terribly deficient. But this general religious view is incompatible with materialism, and with any view that banishes value from the ultimate objective nature of things. That is the important point. And it is hard, if not impossible, to conceive of objective moral principles somehow floating around on their own, apart from any persons. It seems most reasonable that moral conscience is the voice of God within the soul, because moral value exists only on the level of persons, minds and wills. This does not have to be the Christian God and it doesn't even have to be a God to you as we all have a different perception of this. But I like to positively attribute this to something like a God or warrior within yourself that stops you from fallacious actions and that allows you to think intelligently. But again, as I said earlier, there is no proof that concept is the external sincerity. However, this supreme being is not necessarily the creator of anything, but is our sensible and sound mind that can be likened to a God if you want it to.
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Sin Inherited Humankind
by looter inso jws believe all humans have faults, problems, birth pangs, etc., because we all inherited sin from the original human being adam.
like i would like this to make since but why would jehovah do this to future humans who have done nothing wrong at all?
i think of it like if a parent has one child and that child really disobeyed her before then when the parent has a second child, she punishes that child because of what her first did.
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looter
So JWs believe all humans have faults, problems, birth pangs, etc., because we all inherited sin from the original human being Adam. Like I would like this to make sense but why would Jehovah do this to future humans who have done nothing wrong at all? I think of it like if a parent has one child and that child really disobeyed her before then when the parent has a second child, she punishes that child because of what her first did. Now that's not fair at all. Can someone hope to issue some logic to this? I hated how JWs would act like this made perfect sense but never really explained it thoroughly. The explanation was always that since one human sinned, all humans sin. Makes no sense.