Posts by willyloman

33

What would you consider to be 'Victory over the Watchtower'?

by nicolaou in

i'm not talking about a victory which might include welcome reforms on blood policy, shunning or the handling of abuse allegations.

what i want to know is what we would consider to be the victory.. it is unlikey in the extreme that the various corporations of the watchtower empire will ever be closed down so, realistically what can we hope for in the long term?

say 30 - 50 years?.

willyloman

Have y'all forgotten EVERYTHING you ever learned? The answer to this question is right there in the, uh, sorry to have to use this word... Bible...where Jesus said, I have conquered the world.

The victory of the WT won't come in like Armageddon, and it won't be complete and utter destruction. It will come a step at a time as individuals "conquer the world" of the Watchtower by shedding its disruptive influence over their lives and the lives of their families.

Everywhere this is happening. Whole families are checking out, first mentally, then physically. This board stands as powerful testimony to the winds of change that are sweeping through the organization... not in terms of doctrine or policy, but in terms of personal conviction and action.

Your individual role in this fight is to get free, tell others, and move on. You will look around one day see the WTS as a very small thing, without stature and without any teeth. It may not have changed very much at all, but that's how YOU will see it. I think that's the one victory you can count on.

84

The Elders Are Getting Opinions About Minimus

by minimus in

jw
friends

my mother told me that her bookstudy overseer asked his group this question---"why do you think a mature brother in the truth would just suddenly leave and stop coming to meetings?

any ideas?

" the group gave different opinions and finally he gave what he thought could be the reasons.

willyloman

A thought that hasn't surfaced here yet on this topic:

Sometimes, the elders don't approach a person who has just stopped coming because they already "know" why they aren't there and just don't want to give voice to it.

We had a Min Svt who left a message on an elder's answering machine that he couldn't do an assigned talk coming up that week, and that since this was the third talk in a row he had cancelled, he wanted to be deleted as an MS. He never came to another meeting and never met with the elders. He did have a long phone convo with one of the elders in which he said he was "having some doubts about how strong his faith really was" and needed "time to work some things out." That's been two or three years and no one's seen him since! (And, no, he was not DF'd).

However, before he left, both in personal conversation and even in some talks from the platform he was known for voicing some slightly unorthodox ideas about Christianity (at least from a JW point of view). He never said anything "actionable" but it was clear he was conflicted and searching for meaning.

I saw him in a coffee shop, reading Michener's "The Source," about six months after he disappeared. Another elder was with me. We walked over and said hello. He didn't invite us to sit, but chatted briefly and said that things were going okay for him and that he was doing a lot of reading these days. Then he fell silent, and neither of us knew what to say, except, well, we miss you, hope to see you soon. We left. In the car, we discussed briefly what else we could have done. The other elder, much older than I, said, Well, you can't force people to love Jehovah.

Though it went unspoken, we both knew he left because he didn't believe it anymore, or just got tired of it. There was nothing more to be said, and nothing to be gained by opening that can of worms ourselves.

I have often thought about this brother as I make my own journey to freedom. A day will come when I will have coffee with him and find out what he's been reading.

67

Praise Bill, I got my MCSD !

by Simon in

jw
friends

as per my previous "proclamations of self-achievement" .

i passed my exam !

wohoo ... passed another exam !.

willyloman

Simon: Just some friendly advice from this side of the pond. Over here, this phrase has a whole different meaning that you might have intended:

Next year, I'm thinking of carrying on with another couple

36

Comments You Won't Hear at the 12-14-03 WT Study

by blondie in

" men take the lead, women merely "support.".

what contributed to priscilla's zeal and courage?

(luke 8:1-3).. yes, the privilege of doing the marketing, cooking, cleaning up, and laundry of 13 men while they did evangelizing.. wt 12/1/75 p. 717 christian greatness comes from serving.

willyloman

Oooh! Ooooh! Call on me!

(Ahem)

I'd like to comment on this paragraph:

What was done to encourage her? "From year to year the daughters of Israel would go to give commendation to the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite, four days in the year." (Judges 11 :30-40)

The WTS take on this scripture at Judges is suspect. Note another modern English translation at verses 38-40:

"...She and her friends went up into the mountains and grieved because she was going to die unmarried and childless. (39) After two months she came back to her father. He did what he had promised the LORD and she died still a virgin. This was the origin of the custom in Israel (40) that the Israelite women would go out for four days every year to grieve for the daughter of Jephthah...." (TEV)

Other translations are similar. There's a huge difference between this and the WTS' contention that the women offered "commendation" to this young woman. Her "sacrifice" was clearly lamented, not applauded. The sentiment was so widespread that grieving over the incident became "a custom in Israel."

12

So this is Christmas, what were you told by family, elders & Kingdom Hall

by run dont walk in

jw
friends

so it is christmas, hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm, most of us (not all) grew up in the borg never knowing or doing things at christmas, looking back now, what were some of the bs reasons, your parents, elders, kingdom hall talks, or watchtower told you about not celebrating christmas ....................

willyloman

Aslief:

Very profound post! You said a lot in a few words.

26

Which is worse - a JW wedding or a JW funeral?

by jgnat in

jw
friends

besides the regular stress that all brides go through, a jw couple must worry about being caught in inappropriate behavior through the engagement period, thereby nixing a kh wedding.

and then there is the stress of the invitation list.

who must be shunned, is so-and-so of an approved state to attend, etc, etc, etc.. then there is the jw funeral, or jw participants in a regular funeral.

willyloman

It's a toss-up. Avoid both like the plague.

17

Baptisms at the Sydney International Convention.

by BLISSISIGNORANCE in

ok......................60,000 attended the convention at the olympic stadium and all the news reports here in oz say there were 500 baptised.

images on the news showing young and old getting dunked gave me the horrors.

i just couldn't help but wonder how many pedophiles and sexual abuse victims were there pretending to be righteouss and happy.

willyloman

As a former convention bigshot who spent time in the Most Holy upstairs in administration where we could look out on the proles, and be seen by them as well, here's my "take" on these numbers. It's an "international" convention, and they load up for these. Dubs are like everyone else; they want to be part of the "in" crowd and they're celebrity conscious. These international things are loaded with Bethyl heavies and everyone wants to be there and be seen. If there's an international coming up soon, that's "the place" to be baptized if you can time it right, and a big push is on. Even at that, the 500 figure is less than the traditional standard of 1% of attendance, which in this case was 60,000 (so the 'target' was probably 600). In times past, baptisms at international conventions were huge; I attended one with 40,000 in attendance, and more than 1,100 took the plunge.

12

So this is Christmas, what were you told by family, elders & Kingdom Hall

by run dont walk in

jw
friends

so it is christmas, hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm, most of us (not all) grew up in the borg never knowing or doing things at christmas, looking back now, what were some of the bs reasons, your parents, elders, kingdom hall talks, or watchtower told you about not celebrating christmas ....................

willyloman

I can hardly wait to feel the sound waves flow along my skin.

And that's the point I keep making to my wife about our journey "out." You have to trust your instincts and follow them.

11

XMAS PARTY-ZERO GUILT

by stillajwexelder in

just want to let you all know i went to the company christmas party last night -- crabs legs appetizer, salad, prime rib (cooked rare), strawberry cheese cake washed down with bourbon and a jack phelps californian red --- but the best bit of all -- -it felt good and i had zero guilt - and did not bump into and jws so i am not going to get dfd just yet!

!

willyloman

Blondie: Laughed at your experience! I went to mine and won the damn door prize; now my picture will be in the employee newsletter! Not sure how I'll explain that.

12

So this is Christmas, what were you told by family, elders & Kingdom Hall

by run dont walk in

jw
friends

so it is christmas, hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm, most of us (not all) grew up in the borg never knowing or doing things at christmas, looking back now, what were some of the bs reasons, your parents, elders, kingdom hall talks, or watchtower told you about not celebrating christmas ....................

willyloman

I hope you all got to see the A&E special on TV last night, the Boston Pops Orchestra's Holiday Concert. It's the first one I've ever watched. I was struck by the talent of the musicians, the obvious piety displayed towards "religious" music, the joy and innocence of it all. I thought, how could any think this is evil in any way? It lifted the spirits and and clarified my thinking on a number of things.

Amy Grant sang a song she wrote about what young teenaged Mary must have felt like carrying the child in her womb and being completed misjudged by others, yet secure in the knowledge that she was special. I thought, Witnesses would scorn, but who is it who is in front of millions of people expressing her faith so beautifully?

I wept for all the lost memories, strident judgmentalism and inaccurate portrayals I was both subjected to and fostered upon others, and I vowed to make up for it.