Posts by apocalypse

55

Being pressured and getting increasingly stressed.

by NBird in

hello, i'm a 17 year old born in and i'm done with this religion.

one hundred percent.

i came to the conclusion a year ago that i wanted to leave.

apocalypse

Stand back and take a good look at watchtower baptism as see it for what it is, then you have no trouble not getting baptised. Read Matt 28:19, 20 and then listen to another baptism talk. There is no mention made of the father son and holy spirit. Jesus made a direct command and yet watchtower wants no part of it. Watchtower baptism is invalid.

25

Can one person make a difference? Need your help please.

by apocalypse in

i am feeling a bit out of sorts & i need to bounce this off the board.. do some of you remember the coming out of the un scandal back when?.

have you seen the letter from the un in c of c?.

i am sitting here with that original letter in my hand.. the day before the date on this letter, i had heard about the watchtower involvement on hourglass2.

apocalypse

I have read and pondered all the responses here. I am also keeping abreast of what is happening with the new anti-watchtower movement.

My belief that 'one can make a difference' has been bolstered. But I must acknowledge a few facts.

First, since I was in a situation where I couldn't receive the UN letter at my home, how would I get it? I was using a post office box to get my books from Ray Franz. Could I use that? I fear that Paul may have been reluctant to work that way. Fortunately, there was Hawkaw. He filled the slot gladly. So, I wasn't left alone. Also, as Hawkaw later told me, Paul was backpeddling somewhat. But Hawk leaned on him. Made sure he was on board.

So, if I was left to being just 'one', I suppose after more time I, or somewone else, could have done an Erin Brockovich. http://www.brockovich.com/ But more time would have gone by. It might not have worked out the way it did.

Second, it was the threat of multitudes, 'myriads and myriads of brothers' telephone calls and emails and snail mails that worked as a motivator.

So, I guess I was never really alone. However, if we all took the attitude that 'somebody else' can do it, then nothing would have happened.

And if Norm wouldn't have done the leg-work and found out about watchtower's betrayal of us all in the first place, " then we would all be speakin' " watchtower.

So, is there room for a group of some kind? I would say so. I think so. But what shape will it take.

When the good people of Stratton Ohio were moving against watchtower, trying to force the dubs to wear ID badges, I called the lawyers down there. I told them that they had to do it right, because they are not fighting amatures. I told the lawyers that they didn't understand watchtower, that they needed to do the legwork, understand the past court battles, and definitely have input from those who have lived watchtower.

So, those lawyers lost miserably. No surprise there. Why? Because they had no humility. They were too big for their britches. And they wasted their time and money.

What I see with the anti-wt group is alot like what I saw in the lawyers of Stratton Ohio. They will waste their time. Many will be alienated. And people will be saddened with an opportunity lost.

25

Can one person make a difference? Need your help please.

by apocalypse in

i am feeling a bit out of sorts & i need to bounce this off the board.. do some of you remember the coming out of the un scandal back when?.

have you seen the letter from the un in c of c?.

i am sitting here with that original letter in my hand.. the day before the date on this letter, i had heard about the watchtower involvement on hourglass2.

apocalypse

Thanks for the responses. Remember though, that the the very first letter, the one that is now in CofC is what Hawkaw and I worked on. It is snail mail, a hardcopy.

The letter that went up on the UN website was the upgrade. It was prepared later and for electronic dissemination. It was even more specific and was a rebuttal to Watchtower's lies.

Watchtower said that they never agreed to the Criteria of Association for NGO's and of course the reason for that denial is plain, namely they would have had to agree in writing to the "principals and ideals" of the UN Charter. (hawkaw's work getting this, he is a bright fella having recognized this fact)

So, Watchtower lied to the UN, claiming to agree to the principals and all that, but of course we all know Watchtower. Then they lied to all of us about the formal agreeing to the Criteria of Assoc.

Paul Hoeffel asked that the first letter be disseminated to all who needed the confirmation, and of course we spread it wherever we could on the interent. But you all out there kept on calling the UN unrelentingly, the demands for specifics being more detailed after some had written the Watchtower for a comment and recieved Watchtower lies.

So the continued phone calls to the UN created a need for the more detailed document right on the UN website. For that I give a big high5 to everyone out there who participated. (a one, the another one, then one one one one one)

Just recently, I uploaded for dissemination, the correspondence emails that were ongoing between Stephen Bates (writer for The Guardian) and 'Brother' Gillies (Watchtower mouth) as I was in contact with Mr Bates during the big blowup. Mr Bates gladly provided me the correspondence. It is now on jwfacts along with my personal comments of the time. http://www.jwfacts.com/pdf/un-correspondence-bates-gilles.pdf

To the Watchtower claim that watchtower was glad to have had this matter "brought to their attention", one has but to read the emails flying back and forth to understand the "veracity" of watchotwer statements. (I thank jwfacts for putting it up on their site.)

I am feeling that one CAN make a difference. If one can, then do we need a big organization to go head to head with Watchtower? Call it whatever, but do we need one? If not a "need", then 'is there room' for one? Is it necessarily a bad thing?

I personally believe that one must have love in their heart as a motivator for any of this work. And if that, then humility must play a part.

I don't think it's enough to bulldoze Watchtower. Not that I wouldn't like to see bulldozers levelling the Watchtower. If I would see that, I would say "yep, that's about right". (smile)

But I feel that any effort, if many would want to become involved together as a unit, this would have to be because we LOVE people, and JWs are people. I am still attending meetings, where I have to. I fake service. I am even serving the congregation if you can imagine it. (take that watchtower)

Yes, after all these years. Why, because I am helping to hold family together. And while I am in Watchtower camp, I try to help people out. And I have helped some. I have one young 'brother' presently who has asked about the "UN thing" and he want's to see the letter.

He must know a fair bit. I am not sure all of what he knows, but when I said to him that "certain relationships were cultivated that should never have been cultivated", he came right back with "you mean the UN thing"?? and I asked "you know about that"?? So I begain my work, hoping to help him and promised to keep it between us as his "wife doesn't know"... Sound all too familiar?

Why am I helping him? Well, I love him, and anyone else who wants to better understand. To possibly be free.

Whatever is done, let's try to keep love out front. Is a name starting with "anti" going to be the best we can do?

25

Can one person make a difference? Need your help please.

by apocalypse in

i am feeling a bit out of sorts & i need to bounce this off the board.. do some of you remember the coming out of the un scandal back when?.

have you seen the letter from the un in c of c?.

i am sitting here with that original letter in my hand.. the day before the date on this letter, i had heard about the watchtower involvement on hourglass2.

apocalypse

I don't post very often, but today, I just have to. I am feeling a bit out of sorts & I need to bounce this off the board.

Do some of you remember the coming out of the UN scandal back when?

Have you seen the letter from the UN in C of C?

I am sitting here with that original letter in my hand.

The day before the date on this letter, I had heard about the watchtower involvement on HOURGLASS2. Till this day I still do not know who it was that first posted about it and I'd like to meet him/her.

I called the UN the next day around 3:30PM. I spoke at length to Paul Hoeffel and I pleaded, I mean pleaded, with him to produce a letter defining watchtower's involvement. I believed, I still do, that one person can make a difference.

Paul agreed to do it and faxed it before dropping it in the mailbox. It was faxed to the Ministry of Environment, Kingston ON Canada. The first appearance of this letter in Ray Franz's book Crisis of Conscience was not the original, but the fax.

After seeing the fax in C of C I called Ray and asked if he'd rather have a scan of the original. He said yes, so I sent it and that is what appears there now. (Ray was a superman, the best there could be)

Now, I couldn't risk having the UN send that to me. Today would be a different story, but those days, fear was huge. My significant other was not "out" like today. It would have been chaos for me.

So, my good friend, who went by the name Hawkaw here on the forum, and who works for the Ministry of the Environment, consented to receive it. In fact, he also called Paul Hoeffel to make sure that that letter would be coming.

In time, my good freind sent me the original which I have till now. He feels his work is done and you don't see him here anymore. He has gone on with life. Thankyou to him.

My dilemma. Even though I lived all this, Ray put the thing in his book, and I am sitting here with the original in the date stamped post marked envelope, one in my group feels strongly that one person cannot make a difference. Not much of one anyway.

I have been told that I have "gone off the deep end" with my thinking.

Why this comes about... All this chatter about anti watchtower activists has caused some controversy amoung my group and I expressed myself in one place. It has caused me some distress.

Now, I will be the first to say that I feel that the anti wt people are doing it wrong. Just my opinion mind you. Seems others share that opinion.

I might even call Barb Anderson and express such and hope she doesn't go the aaw route. I hope she doesn't hate me.

Was my effort with the UN so meaningless? Did it not matter. Does it not count? Can one make a difference?

18

Jesus' true prophecy exposes Watchtower as apostate.

by apocalypse in

disclaimer: the below is a far different version than you are accustomed to read.

when you eliminate the verse numbers (as it should be) you get a different flavor entirely.

when you also eliminate the spaces that all bibles have between verses (but particularily the new world translation) which seriously affect the interpretation, your view can change.

apocalypse

You found something you were looking for for a long time? What was it?

18

Jesus' true prophecy exposes Watchtower as apostate.

by apocalypse in

disclaimer: the below is a far different version than you are accustomed to read.

when you eliminate the verse numbers (as it should be) you get a different flavor entirely.

when you also eliminate the spaces that all bibles have between verses (but particularily the new world translation) which seriously affect the interpretation, your view can change.

apocalypse

You've had a chance to go through and see that there are facets of all three books, Matthew, Mark, Luke. I'm surprised you didn't notice that there's an important name change. It took me a while. But I generally think everybody is smarter than I.

There's no helper here. The post is all I know. And we can't get into the archives at the Vatican to start checking for millenia-long conspiracies.

But I know one thing, Rome doesn't want to look bad anymore than does Watchtower. They certainly don't like the idea that it was the Armies of Rome that destroyed the Jewish homeland. Not a good focal point. I bet this Pope, and all he predecessors, were keen on maintaining a sqeaky-clean image.

You mentioned you had some realization, an epiphany of some kind?

18

Jesus' true prophecy exposes Watchtower as apostate.

by apocalypse in

disclaimer: the below is a far different version than you are accustomed to read.

when you eliminate the verse numbers (as it should be) you get a different flavor entirely.

when you also eliminate the spaces that all bibles have between verses (but particularily the new world translation) which seriously affect the interpretation, your view can change.

apocalypse

This link should skip right to the document.

http://issuu.com/a.s.o.h./docs/olivetdiscourse

18

Jesus' true prophecy exposes Watchtower as apostate.

by apocalypse in

disclaimer: the below is a far different version than you are accustomed to read.

when you eliminate the verse numbers (as it should be) you get a different flavor entirely.

when you also eliminate the spaces that all bibles have between verses (but particularily the new world translation) which seriously affect the interpretation, your view can change.

apocalypse

It's unfortunate, but because there's a "." (period) at the end of the url, it doesn't always post or work.

I put a "/" (slash) at the end which will be discarded in transit, but the link below should work.

http://issuu.com/a.s.o.h./

18

Jesus' true prophecy exposes Watchtower as apostate.

by apocalypse in

disclaimer: the below is a far different version than you are accustomed to read.

when you eliminate the verse numbers (as it should be) you get a different flavor entirely.

when you also eliminate the spaces that all bibles have between verses (but particularily the new world translation) which seriously affect the interpretation, your view can change.

apocalypse

"what my part in it is."

I can help you with that too.

Spread the word.

18

Jesus' true prophecy exposes Watchtower as apostate.

by apocalypse in

disclaimer: the below is a far different version than you are accustomed to read.

when you eliminate the verse numbers (as it should be) you get a different flavor entirely.

when you also eliminate the spaces that all bibles have between verses (but particularily the new world translation) which seriously affect the interpretation, your view can change.

apocalypse

www.issuu.com/a.s.o.h.

The link is flaky becasue of the 'period' at the end.