Posts by no-zombie

39

Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

no-zombie

Thanks Slim ... I'll have a look for them.

Sort of for the record though, the way I've tried to now understand the Bible and Christianity in general (after my disillusionment with the Governing Body matured) is to try to learn how first century Christians worshiped and what they actually believed. In truth, there is not a lot archeological records of the very early Church. However there is enough to imagine that their meetings must have a homely vibe, just as our old congregational book study nights of years long past.

But I believe its really worth the effort to look back at that time, as their a form of worship was clearly approved by God and such digging made it plane to me, that many of the things the the GB expect today, were not issues at all to our early Brothers and Sister at all. It was far simpler and more genuine.

39

Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

no-zombie

Sea Breeze

While I understand the upholding the Trinity teaching as a tenet of Catholic faith is important to many, the simple and clear truth is that Jews were always monotheists as was Jesus Christ. And the the concept of the Trinity is not found in the pages of the Bible.

And the argument that of 2nd century apocryphal sources (at best) claim this or that, is invalid for two reasons.

The first and strongest, is that the final compilation of the Bible's canonical list, was not completed by Holy Spirit until the 3rd century CE. Meaning the works and ideas of Polycarp, Ignatius and the others you mentioned had plenty of time to be included ... but were NOT. And therefore they must be abandoned, as they can not be taken as 'gospel' truths.

And secondly, just because a contemporary witter to the Apostles offered a different view of Jesus' nature is not evidence in itself that the dissenting view is correct. Its like finding a first century scientific paper claiming diseases spontaneously developed out of fresh air (as many did believe back then), as proof that Christians believed in the evolution theory.

Thus in saying this, you have to knowledge that people have always had differing views back in the past as do people today ... however as the Bible is literally God's inspired word, you and me must default to it, even if it does goes against our own treasured personal believes.

39

Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

no-zombie

While I consistently been a word-for-word translation guy through most of my life (thus favoring the 1960s NWT), more recently I've come to the centered conclusion around 2 Timothy 2:14 which says ... 'Keep reminding them of these things, charging them before God as a witness, not to fight about words, a thing of no usefulness at all'

Why?

Because even extremely loose translations like the Good New Bible, do contain sufficient truth to obtain a reasonable relationship with the Almighty ... and (as I previously mentioned) the drilling down to understand Hebrew and Greek nouns is fraught with practical uncertainties.

However, just as William Tyndale correctly said that "a plow boy" should be able to understand God's word, I expect that the real author of the Bible would understand that the scriptures would ultimately be translated into other languages by amateur linguists. Just a Jesus' own words was paraphrased by the Apostles at different times in the Gospels.

And while I hate to say it in this context ... maybe in the end, it's the thought that counts.

39

Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

no-zombie

Sea Breeze

Any translation task is difficult to get right, as there are many linguistic, cultural and historic factor at play. Even dating texts is highly debatable. Its actually recognized as an independent study called paleography ... proving that moving the Bible from one language to another is highly complex and often subjective.

A number of respected publications that I own, that have helped me come to this understanding, I've listed below for your consideration, namely ...

Scribes and Scholars: A guide to the Transmission of Greek and Latin Literature by Reynolds and Wilson

Guardians of Letters: Literacy Power and the Transmitters of Early Christian Literature by Haines-Eitzen

The Earliest Christian Artifacts: Manuscripts and Christian Origins by Hurtado

Inside Roman Libraries: Book Collections and Their Management in Antiquity by Houston

Books and Readers in the Early Church: A History of Early Christian Texts by Gamble

Ante-Pacem: Archaeological Evidence of Church Life before Constantine by Snyder

However if you original thought is based up on the whether Zech 12:10 supports the Trinity, my final argument against that view, is based upon the Jewish messianic expectations and identifications. Jews in the first century were expecting a man like King David not God personified. And this view is clearly amplified by all the Christian texts before Constantine, particularly those of the early church up to 200-250CE

39

Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

no-zombie

Sea Breeze,

while I do understand what you are getting at in your question (the implication being here that that God and Jesus are the same person, which is a kind of proto-Trinity concept) and while I acknowledge that many English translation of this verse does use the word me in this verse, at the same time, and equal number of good Bible translations do not use the word me in that verve, but prefer instead to go with a phrase similar to the one.

This is because both understandings could be right.

However as far a I understand, the English translation of the Greek Septuagint (which the gold standard) does use the expression the one. Which would support the position of the NWT.

7

NOT on JW.org. Massive growth of new congregations in Africa? Really?

by Balaamsass2 in

lady shares her experience attending a "jehovah’s witness church after accepting an invitation from one of their members".

a nigerian lady shares her unexpected and comically awkward experience attending a jehovah’s witness service for the first time after accepting an invitation from a persistent male friend, who was a member of the church.. a nigerian lady shares her unexpected and comically awkward experience attending a jehovah’s witness service for the first time after accepting an invitation from a persistent male friend, who was a member of the church.. .

she shared a video detailing her experience, with a caption that read;.

no-zombie

While I'm sure that the hope of the Governing Body was a publisher increase, driven through the efforts of their RTOs, digital access in the African continent is quite restricted to regional centers. Even past magazine articles has admitted the cost of have a data plans are beyond most people living in rural areas.

That being said, the poor and the despite will always look at any floating object to take hold of. Thus we shouldn't write-off the Organization in those countries.

Although I do expect the churn of people in and out of the congregations to be higher than the west, once they begin to realize that being a Witness is going to hinder putting food on their tables.

9

I asked A.I. (GEMINI PRO 2.5) to research Jehovah's Witnesses and make an analysis

by Terry in

jw
friends

self-description of gemini pro 2.5 ai tools, like gemini pro 2.5, use advanced algorithms to analyze data, summarize findings, and even generate written content based on learned information to streamline complex information, making it more accessible to a wider audience.. link to this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x64fbp1upkhqzwvmqhw6hn_2b6tqn06rv8mt3v5dalo/edit?usp=sharingthe evolving truth: a chronological analysis of doctrinal development in jehovah's witnesses' teachings.

introduction.

jehovah's witnesses, a millenarian restorationist christian denomination, emerged in the united states during the latter half of the 19th century, primarily from the teachings of charles taze russell.

no-zombie

Thanks Terry for your original post.

But it is quite interesting when you reflect on how each new president 'flavored' the organization. And while we may focus on the work or Russell and Rutherford, I sort of feel that Knorr gave us the true face of the religion. Not that younger people could connect back to those days, though.

Now we have the Governing Body, whose early generations were more like the leaders of the past. But as soon ones like Losch, Herd and Splane get their heavenly reward ... I'm guessing the GB will become quite vanilla and rather quickly slip into 'care taker' mode.

34

Remember Hour Quotas?

by blondie in

jw
friends

hour quotas timeline.

back in the old days long before 1952.

“after staying in our ‘home’ for two days we decided that if we were going to meet our quota of 140 hours for the month.

no-zombie

In our hall, that board would be wheeled out onto the platform at the end of every month, to compare the congregation's averages with that of the national averages. Sometimes we were on par ... sometimes not.

But for us, it disappeared around the mid 70s.

12

Christians and War and the Role of Conscience (a work in progress)

by Terry in

christians and war and the role of conscience ______________ christian integrity vs duty to superior authority from the federal government’s povthe u.s. government saw jw’s as one group within a larger group of men refusing military service within existing law - for reasons of deeply held convictions.

we jw brothers weren’t the only ones affected, as evidenced by this list.. quakers.

jehovah’s witnesses.

no-zombie

Sea Breeze

Sadly whether you 'believe' it or not, government power and authority has always been through use of the military. And a simple google search quickly shows how many times in American history the army has called out to attack its own citizens, proving it. Lest I remind you of what happened on the 4th May at Kent State University in 1970.

And while the US military may swear allegiance to defend the Constitution, who is their supreme commander? The President of the Unites States not the Congress. Supporting this with a practical example is, despite the presence of the War Power Act of 1970 (which requires the US President to get Congressional support for a declaration of war) we see that it has actually been violated many times by sitting Presidents, without legal prosecution. Thus showing that even in America, the true application of the Bill of Rights, like the right of free assembly and the right of due process ... is at the whim of ... the State.

12

Christians and War and the Role of Conscience (a work in progress)

by Terry in

christians and war and the role of conscience ______________ christian integrity vs duty to superior authority from the federal government’s povthe u.s. government saw jw’s as one group within a larger group of men refusing military service within existing law - for reasons of deeply held convictions.

we jw brothers weren’t the only ones affected, as evidenced by this list.. quakers.

jehovah’s witnesses.

no-zombie

Let no-one misunderstand that the sole purpose of the army is the protection of the state ... not its citizens.

In addition, as the state has the monopoly of legalized violence, it is the state that decides what is a just war, not its people.

However what an individual may choose to do (or not do) is up to him and his personal conscience ... and with all decisions a man makes, there are consequences (good or bad). And as such, he should not complain when he finds himself in a muddy trench or behind prison bar.