Posts by XJWBill

8

Elitism and the "Final Solution"

by Norm in

jw
friends

many of mankinds most infamous leaders have had as their central idea that in order to solve whatever they have perceived as mankinds problems can be solved by genocide.

one of the best know in our time is adolf hitler.

he followed an old european/biblical tradition of blaming the jews for all the problems facing the german people and the world.

XJWBill

This latest one reminds us about the religious area where Christianity itself is based on the elitism of religious orthodoxy. Only those who belong to the Christian faith has the right to exist so you have to convert of die, which of course make’s the Christian religion into the basically evil force it is.

You make some good points about WT hypocrisy, Norm, but Christianity as an "evil force"? I was hurt by the JW's, too, and I spent a long time afterwards as an atheist/agnostic, so I can understand your feeling bitter towards religion, any religion.

But here you are making the same colossal error of judgement that the WT does--painting everything you don't like black, deep black, wickedly and hopelessly black.

Nope. I'm not buying it from the GB--or anyone else. Like everything else in this mortal life, the Christian religion has an admixture of good and bad, but to call it "evil" is way short of truth, good sense, or even good manners.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

12

Red Religion and the Lawless Man

by GinnyTosken in

jw
friends

ive been sorting through my old jw books and found one published in 1951, what has religion done for mankind?.

skimming through it, a few sections caught my eye.. the societys comments about the dangers of the totalitarian red religion of communism are hilarious, since they easily apply to the society itself.

substitute russell, rutherford, knorr, and franz for marx, engels, lenin, and stalin, and brooklyn for moscow, and voila!.

XJWBill

Am I the only one whose eyes glaze over when reading stuff from the society??? I try to read the serious posts, I really do!! But first comes the blurring....then the mental lassitude I was always warned against....I read the same paragraphs several times without a clue what they mean....HEY! It reminds me of when I was at the meetings!!!
Dana (of the lets-talk-about-sex-and-food class!!)

Hey, Dana, funny you should mention that--same thing happens to me reading quotes from the society!!

Guess we've just gone "spiritually blind" at last, huh?!

Or did we already get filled to the eyeballs with spiritual b.s. and our eyes just can't take in any more of it??!

Bill

12

Red Religion and the Lawless Man

by GinnyTosken in

jw
friends

ive been sorting through my old jw books and found one published in 1951, what has religion done for mankind?.

skimming through it, a few sections caught my eye.. the societys comments about the dangers of the totalitarian red religion of communism are hilarious, since they easily apply to the society itself.

substitute russell, rutherford, knorr, and franz for marx, engels, lenin, and stalin, and brooklyn for moscow, and voila!.

XJWBill

The quotation from Jerry Bergman is misleading, as it assumes that racial and social attitudes reflected in the quotations from Russell's and Rutherford's writings continued without change into the postwar period. Just not true. I believe a search of WT and Awake articles written after the war in the Knorr-Franz era would show a number of articles expressing the opposite opinion. We must give the devil his due.

Coming into the org. in 1970 while in high school, I also found the JW take on racial equality appealing, though I can report that congregations and circuit assemblies in Pensacola, Florida, were not integrated until the fall of 1972. Up until that point, the reasoning had been that, yes, we are all equal in Jehovah's eyes, but newcomers, black or white, would be "stumbled" if they came to the KH and found a mixed congregation. Which would have been true for some newcomers--social integration had not yet become completely acceptable in the surrounding worldly society.

Before anyone makes a sneering comment at Southern attitudes of the time, let me remind you all that it's very easy, looking back, to take a superior attitude--but not so easy at the time, when you are immersed in things the way they are, to see what is right and just--as we all know from having been "zealous for Jehovah" once upon a time . . . . remember how we all looked down our self-righteous noses at "Christians" and "apostates"?

However, as far as I ever knew, once the Circuit Servant gave the OK, the integration of the "friends" took place rapidly and without any problems, then or later--except perhaps for a few whispered grumbles from a few rather elderly folks, who soon got used to the new arrangement.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

18

Musings on the WTS Funk

by Farkel in

jw
friends

the watchtower society is in a funk.

no doubt about it.

it is stagnant and paralyzed by its own inertia.. it has survived for one and one quarter centuries for a few very simple reasons: .

XJWBill

You GO, Farkel. Very well said.

I well recall the WT study articles in the early 1970's on "The Dangers of Independent Thinking." And standing on people's doorsteps refusing to take so much as a tract from their church, while doing my damndest to make them take the WT and AWAK.

It took me a long time after walking away before I was ready to join another church, and did so only after VERY careful consideration. Fortunately, Episcopalians don't much care about "getting down to specifics." It would throw a damper on the wine and cheese party after Sunday Eucharist. (Imagine that after the Sunday WT Study!)

I'm not sure its fair to say all JW converts are "lazy"--people join for a variety of reasons, most of them good. But if they aren't intellectually lazy when they start, the Society does everything it can to make them that way.

Thanks for sharing that. I enjoyed it. Very true.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

29

Will You Make Room for Pioneering?

by TMS in

jw
friends

regardless of scriptural implications, creating special categories of service such as colporteur, pioneer, special pioneer, etc.

was a brilliant move.. the prestige, status and few little perks associated with those committing to being full-time workers is miniscule compensation for their sacrifice of time, lifestyle, income and educational opportunities.. yes, the hour requirements have dropped on several occasions.

how many on the board know that the regular pioneer requirement was once 150 hours a month, then 1200 hours a year, than 1000, now 90-vacation/assembly time?.

XJWBill

I tried being a Vacation Pioneer once, after I was out of high school. I think I was supposed to get 60 hours in that month, but being somewhat lazy and having no one else to work the territory with on weekdays, I only made a little over 30 hours. It was pretty discouraging, traipsing up and down all those streets by myself.

However, I envied other young brothers with JW families who encouraged them in the Pioneer work. One fellow my age (a little on the "worldly" side) upon high school graduation was offered complete maintenance by his parents--room, board, car, gas, clothing, and spending money--if only he would Pioneer! He wouldn't do it, though--all he really cared about was being a gas jockey at the Gulf station and dirt-biking on weekends.

How I wished I could take his place! All my "ignorant" old worldly mom would do for me was pay for a college education--which I didn't want. She was tolerant of my JW beliefs, but the no-college thing really pushed her buttons. I eventually did get my degrees after leaving the WT, but at a greater cost, involving a huge sacrifice on Mom's part. She never, complained, though--and now she's gone, and I can't make it up to her. Sorry, Mom--thanks for all your love.

Which is why it burns me up to hear the WT has gotten "new light" on college now.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

11

JW's a sect? Comments Please. WARNING-LONG

by lookingnow22 in

jw
friends

first off, i want to say that i am very grateful for this place where i can speak whatevers on my mind.

ive often been amazed at the role that the wtbts & gb put themselves into, all the while claiming that they are not promoting their own standards, and understandings.

heres just a little research ive done lately on what it means to be a sect.

XJWBill

Not having time for a long analysis, here are some brief thoughts:

Denomination, sect, cult all basically denote a group different from a larger group. But we have to look at the connotation of the words, also; they are not interchangeable.

The larger group in question here is Christian churches.

I would say those churches that are mainly in agreement with historic Christian teachings would be called denominations; e.g., Roman Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.

I would say that those churches that are heterodox, significantly deviating from historic Christian beliefs in some areas, are sects; e.g., JW's, Christian Science, Mormons, etc.

I would say that "cult" carries with it the idea of both heterodoxy and obsessiveness to the point where members are cut off from all reality, independent behavior, and normal social relations; e.g., David Koresh and followers, Jim Jones and company, etc.

In my book, JW's are definitely a sect, but not quite a cult--semi-cult, maybe, but they still go out for beer and pizza. Or they did when I was there. I'm sure some will disagree--fire away!

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

4

The wonderful world of religion

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

earlier i was looking at a website run by the "ontario consultants on religious toleration.".

not a bad site.

but the best page there is the comments from visitors.

XJWBill

Interesting web site, Expat. A very comprehensive and undogmatic exposition of many different religious beliefs and viewpoints. Also very interesting points from recent research on homosexuality among both humans and animals. Overall, basically an encyclopedia. I saw nothing at all to justify the hateful, overwrought comments you quoted.

Just goes to show what we all know from our WT experience: for many, if not most people, loyalty to the group (church or clan) takes precedence over the Golden Rule taught, as the web site points out, by all major religions. Which proves the point of my signature line.

We have met the enemy, and he is us!

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

3

for unclebruce (and whoever else might help)

by teejay in

jw
friends

yo, unc (and whoever else might be eavesdropping and can help),.

since you never answer your emails, i have to reach you this way... :-p. in the past, you've made some rather provocative comments about.

biblical figures (abraham, moses, etc.

XJWBill

Teejay, this may not be the sort of thing you're looking for, but I can recommend "The Mind of Jesus" by William Barclay, Professor of Divinity at the University of Glasgow. Barclay is familiar with NT Greek and brings in many fascinating points of history, social customs, and archaelogy to this discussion of Jesus' life and work.

More theological and less biographical is "The Meaning of the Cross" by Leslie Weatherhead, a prominent Methodist minister in Britain.

And of course, for a challenging intellectual workout, I recommend anything by C. S. Lewis. His book "Miracles" has several chapters on those of Christ.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

68

JW's & alternative medicine

by slipnslidemaster in

jw
friends

in one of the threads i read today, they were talking about looking into your eyeballs to diagnose cancer and the like.

also selling herbs.. my comment and question is this: it seemed like in my congregation and the surrounding ones, alot of the sisters were into kineseology, reflexology, herbs, vitamins, color therapy, aroma therapy, etc.. alot of touchy feely hippie crap.

while i personally agree that there needs to be more synergy with eastern and western medicines, it would appear reading the boards that alot of witnesses are into this sort of stuff.. is this your experience?

XJWBill

One very wise man said "There are three main lies: statistics, statistics, and statistics."

Actually, the quotation, possibly from Mark Twain, is:

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

62

The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality

by JanH in

jw
friends

there is a fallacy of logic that is so common that few people realize that it is, indeed, a fallacy of logic: the fallacy by appeal to nature.. one argument against homosexuality goes something like this:.

the natural use of the reproductive organs is obviously to make children.

using these organs in a way that cannot produce children is unnatural and thus ethically wrong.. .

XJWBill

Doug, I appreciate your more tolerant view of homosexuality now that you've left the WT. However, I don't think you really mean what you're saying in your first statement.

As a society, we very much DO, in fact, reject pedophiles (as one example) in their totality. If it comes to your attention that a friend, neighbor, or workmate is indeed a practicing pedophile, are you going to keep on going bowling with him? Watch a ball game with him? Invite him over for dinner, whether you have kids at home or not? I think not, unless he's a very close friend and trying to change.

Not only will such a person be shunned by family and friends--and rightly so--but he is also subject to sanctions by the greater society, such as jail and fines. In Florida, the law now says pedophiles can be kept indefinitely--perhaps for life--in a mental facility AFTER they have served their jail sentence, without further court order. Many states now post pedophiles' pictures on the Web for everyone to see, along with their street addresses. Here in Texas, the Legislature is currently considering a bill to require convicted pedophiles to post a sign in front of their homes--"Warning--Pedophile lives here."

What else can you call this treatment by individuals and society but "rejection of you, the pedophile"?

My point is not to defend pedophiles--simply to point out that rejecting a person's sexuality IS indeed a rejection of that person. The real point at issue is which brands of sexuality are truly deserving of such rejection.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)