go and read it again at acts 5: 11. ananias and sapphira drop dead at peter's feet for "playing false to god/holy spirit" by not giving all of the money to peter that they got from a field they sold.
ananias and sapphira were christians.
they wanted to help the poor and so sold one of their possessions, a field, and gave most of the money to peter.
Compare Ananias and Sapphira with the Israelite that was stoned to death for picking sticks on a sabbath.
Both happened at the infancy of the congregation. Both were executed for apparently minor transgressions.
Clearly, both were used to set as an example for the rest.
Eden
[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].
[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:trackmoves /> <w:trackformatting /> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:donotpromoteqf /> <w:lidthemeother>en-us</w:lidthemeother> <w:lidthemeasian>x-none</w:lidthemeasian> <w:lidthemecomplexscript>x-none</w:lidthemecomplexscript> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> <w:splitpgbreakandparamark /> <w:enableopentypekerning /> <w:dontflipmirrorindents /> <w:overridetablestylehps /> </w:compatibility> <m:mathpr> <m:mathfont m:val="cambria math" /> <m:brkbin m:val="before" /> <m:brkbinsub m:val="--" /> <m:smallfrac m:val="off" /> <m:dispdef /> <m:lmargin m:val="0" /> <m:rmargin m:val="0" /> <m:defjc m:val="centergroup" /> <m:wrapindent m:val="1440" /> <m:intlim m:val="subsup" /> <m:narylim m:val="undovr" /> </m:mathpr></w:worddocument> </xml><!
[endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"century schoolbook","serif";} </style> <![endif].
Agreed with urban legend. 2013 will have 3 days as usual.
Eden
i was doing some reading on jonestown recently, which led me to some reading on the branch davidians and the heaven's gate folks.. it seems to me (and this is the part i want to discuss) doomsday or apocolyptic cults all share some common characteristics:.
- secret knowledge of am impending disaster.
- their survival if they follow the messages from a higher source that their leader receives.
Following cofty's challenge, let me just wrap up my participation on this thread by admitting that the JW's are indeed a religion that may be characterized as "apocalyptic" indeed, due to the importance the Armageddon occupies in its theology; not exactly by all the reasons stated by EP. What I disagree is that the "apocalyptic" nature of the theology may produce outcomes as bizarre as the Davidians or similar groups. It just doesn't, except perhaps with individuals with mental disorders.
Eden
i'm just doing some research for my book, and i uncovered a real gem from the watch tower of july 1st 1914 - published three months before the "gentile times" were due to end climaxing (as they thought back then) in armageddon.. a rather brave "colporteur" (pioneer) wrote in to the magazine asking whether the studies in the scriptures series of books advocating 1914 to be the end of the world should cease to be circulated after october.
not only does the question itself prove that the expectations of publishers back then were entirely contrary to what the society repeatedly implies them to be, but the answer given by russell shows the same arrogance and evasiveness that we see in modern literature from the society, showing how little has changed since those days.. here is the clipping.... .
notice how russell falls back on the same line of argumentation used by the society, namely "we have not attempted to say these views are infallible.".
Very good catch, Cedars.
I found this sentence on Russel's reply to be almost prophetic:
"We have not attempted to say that these views [on 1914] are infallible ... that will be an interesting matter a hundred years from now".
Indeed! 2014 is around the corner and 100 years past since Russel wrote this it is still a matter of interest to JW's and ex-JW's. What Russel didn't expect is that nothing he predicted about 1914 ever came to be.
Eden
i was doing some reading on jonestown recently, which led me to some reading on the branch davidians and the heaven's gate folks.. it seems to me (and this is the part i want to discuss) doomsday or apocolyptic cults all share some common characteristics:.
- secret knowledge of am impending disaster.
- their survival if they follow the messages from a higher source that their leader receives.
Isn't the need to belong to something greater than ourselves a basic human need? I mean this not only in the religious sense. Family, a political party, an artistic genre, an ideology, the planet earth, the universe .... aren't we always needing to find answers as to "where do I fit in this" ? How does this explains me being ME? This is of course exploited by religion, sometimes to bizarre outcomes, but my question is - isn't this a human trait?
Eden
[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].
[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:latentstyles deflockedstate="false" latentstylecount="156"> </w:latentstyles> </xml><!
[endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"times new roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif].
That remains to be seen ... remember Jehovah's plans for Niniv, and how he changed his mind about it (leaving Jonah pissed off in the process)
Eden
even if 607 had been the actual date of the destruction of jerusalem .... 1914 would still be wrong.
when the wts says that "7 times" equals 2 x 3,5 times of revelation = 2 x 1260 days = 2520 days > one day / one year rule = 2520 years.. now, 2520 / 7 times means that one "time" has 360 "days".
this corresponds to the lunar year.
Jeffro,
You're right in your statements. I'm not so clear about n.4, but I'll give it a look.
Roberta,
Even more ridiculous is to say that the trumpets of Revelation correspond to District conventions of the Bible Students in the 1920's. How IMPORTANT are we in the grand scheme of things huh?
Eden
[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].
[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:latentstyles deflockedstate="false" latentstylecount="156"> </w:latentstyles> </xml><!
[endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"times new roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif].
I believe that the death of David and Bethsheba's child wasn't a punishment. Here's how I think it happened:
God saw that the child was fatally malformed, and oportunistically told David that the child would die because of his sin, in order to make him and Bethsheba feel guilty. Given this information, the writer of 1 Samuel concluded that it was God that struck the child. That God could kill that little baby for the sins of others, moreso being their chosen people, is too hard to believe.
Shocking at it may seem, I find this easier to explain than the death of the 70.000 because of David's census.
I believe that the God of the OT is the same as the Father of Jesus in the NT, but He became much more civilized as ages went by because of his dealings with other intelligent beings, angels and humans.
Eden
i was doing some reading on jonestown recently, which led me to some reading on the branch davidians and the heaven's gate folks.. it seems to me (and this is the part i want to discuss) doomsday or apocolyptic cults all share some common characteristics:.
- secret knowledge of am impending disaster.
- their survival if they follow the messages from a higher source that their leader receives.
cofty
"biased" goes both ways. If I'm biased towards the Jehovah's Witnesses, you are justas biased against the Jehovah's Witnesses. You can also be objective about that. And, let's be honest.... I gave JW's a good 6 out of 9 in EP's scale of apocalyptic cults.
Eden
i was doing some reading on jonestown recently, which led me to some reading on the branch davidians and the heaven's gate folks.. it seems to me (and this is the part i want to discuss) doomsday or apocolyptic cults all share some common characteristics:.
- secret knowledge of am impending disaster.
- their survival if they follow the messages from a higher source that their leader receives.
EP, as you know I'm not an WTS apologist, although I'm still a member. I don't think your post tries to apply this to the JW's, but in any case ... In my view:
a) Secret knowledge of am impending disaster - This doesn't fit the JW's. They have been printing loads of literature about this and the Armaggedon has been part of the teaching of the JW's since very early. It's not a "secret knowledge".
b) Their survival if they follow the messages from a higher source that their leader receives - The first part is true. Salvation depends from following instructions from a higher source. However these aren't conveyed in secrecy to the "leader" (the GB) because they find base their doctrine in the Bible, a very public book.
c) Insulation from the outside world (either mentally and/or physically). Partially true (mentally), not true (phisically).
d) A charismatic leader that appeals to the desires of the followers - Completely untrue with the JW's. Their leadership since Russell and Rutherford became much less leader-centered. Instead or appealing to the desires of the followers, the GB seems determined to supress the desires of the followers. Unless you may consider "living forever on a paradise on earth" one such desire. In that case, I would agree in principle. But I think the author didn't have that in mind.
e) Proclaiming the death of all or most outside of their group. True. Although it has been toned down recently, it is still the official doctrine.
f) A sense of tension due to the impending doom (that never seems to happen). The hype around 1914, 1925 and 1975 momentarily corresponds to this, but without a given date-target, the JW's are much more relaxed about "the end".
g) Lack of a sense of history (this has happened before); Yes, and no. They constantly give past examples (the Deluge, the two destructions of Jerusalem) as examples of "end of systems of things". On the other hand, they claim thatArmageddom will be unlike any other event in past history.
h) Lack of critical thinking. hmmmm ... There IS critical thinking inside the JW's. But it is often supressed. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
i) - Merging of pseudo science with religious dogma. True. I cringe when I read things like "TRUE science agrees with the Bible". Huh?
So, JW's don't meet important criteria in your list. Unquestionably SOME of the criteria, but not all.
Eden
