Posts by Saintbertholdt

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Hi Wasanelder Once,

The stipend was hush money

Damn straight. But also for a lifetime of service. If he accepted it the GB knew he would keep quiet. He would not have been DF'd and the shunning rules would never have been re-introduced. When he declined they knew what he was going to do next. The fact is he was not a 'Hannibal' who would quietly retire after defeat. He was now going to declare a new war using his pen.

I get the sense from his book CoC and videos of him giving talks on YouTube in Europe that he was not in any way seeking status or prominence.

True. On the other hand one could argue his bid for power failed so in defeat his narrative had to take a very particular slant. If you get 70+ corrections in one chapter of a new book of which you are the editor, this is a strong signal that you're altering doctrines and that you're challenging the status quo. And the status always wants to remain quo.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Hi Steve,

Franz did not only skirt around Greenlees, he skirted around Frederick as well. Why? There was much more going on between the two than he let on and he didn't want to expose too much of their internal politics.

As I wrote to John Aquila, I don't want to push the Greenlees issue too hard because it has repercussions. I do want to give my thoughts on why I think he omitted Greenlees in this response post and then I'll let it go. I'll refer to this post, but don't want to comment on the Greenlees thing any further. In retrospect I should have left it out in the original post because it can just get ugly. Perhaps that's what Raymond thought :)

You are right that if Franz outed Greenlees it would have lowered the integrity of the GB from politically minded men to the everyday sick and fucked up shit humanity has to deal with on a daily basis. It would have shown the GB for the clowns (copyright LostGeneration) that they are. I further contend that Franz would have been happy to remain a part of the Clownshow if his theological changes were implemented.

But then again the argument is valid that the Greenlees accusations were possibly just accusations. But isn't that what everybody is on about today anyway? The way things are handled in sexual molestation cases. Why was this swept under the rug? Why did Franz not draw attention to the procedure unless he was fine with it?

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Ray's books had a tremendous effect on my thinking, and his way of writing, without the flaming apostate attitude I was led to believe I would find by WTBTS, impressed me greatly. However, I believe he knew what he was eventually going to do when he left if he could not make reforms from the inside.

Thanks for the good insights.

I will say CoC definitely had a positive effect on me.

The motivation for this thread came from the way everybody came down on Vinman. Now he did not really provide any arguments for Ray being an 'idiot' so he got hammered. But the thread also showed the fact that Franz has in some ways obtained a demigod status in ex-JW circles.

So I guess I want to peg him down a notch or two. Franz wanted to rule the world like everybody else, and he had personal selfish motivations. His supposed pure altruism was pure horse manure.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

"Also, and I may be wrong here, was not Leo Greenlees made to leave because he was gay - not a pederast."

Possibly both. The threads on the forum say that the accusations were made by a boy. Decades later a (now grown) man by the name of Mark Palo made the accusation on video.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Leading on from that, what I find interesting is that he so obviously didn't trust Gods 'loving, only true' Christian organization in the least!

Ah hahahahahaha. As in all politics you definitely can't trust the other guy to play fair.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

"They didn't move on him right after he moved away, they had to find something to "get him" on, and they even had to change the DA doctrine just to get him on that."

When he refused the Watchtower stipend they knew he would not keep quiet. Frederick knew what he was going to do and had to make sure no one would associate with him or read his book. Yeah it F'd everybody else in A for decades to come but hey, it was war. Raymond Franz felt pangs of conscience over the reason for his DF'ing because he knew how much pain it caused and because his own motives were not snowy white.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

and I believe Ray was trying to exit peacefully.

I'm going to be blunt here: I think Franz was making a power play for chief theologian in the late 70's after the 75 failure. He was smart enough to make a backup plan when he saw his effort failing though. C'mon him and Dunlap were being blatant regarding their intent through the James book and their conversations with the Spanish Bethelites.

Ray probably gave much thought as to how the subjects in the book would affect the over-all tone or attitude of his book.

Yep he was a smart man :)

he wrote so that it would not come off as hateful rhetoric against a group of people that kicked him out.

I don't know about that. Malawi/Mexico basically makes the GB out to be war criminals with Franz being the lone dissenter. That he used toned down language I agree with, but the accusations are very clear.

I don't think he pulled his punches at all.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Now I can see the relevance of continuing on the subject in the book if the GB allowed Greenlees to continue serving as a GB, but since they dismissed him, it kind of ended the matter. They could not be accused of allowing him to serve after the fact of the matter when the majority became aware.

Ok I won't push the Greenlees matter too hard. What do you think about Franz being oblivious as to what was going to happen to him? He was way too intelligent not to pick up on what was going down. In CoC he plays the innocent victim. I call bullshit on that.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Crisis of Conscience was not the place to make that kind of allegation.

Why not? He insinuates that the GB are the equivalent of War criminals with Malawi/Mexico. He discussed the sexual practice of a man in a wheelchair.

If there was enough evidence to make an allegation, it should have been made to the police, not published in a book.

Franz did not defend Greenlees either. His reputation has been destroyed as a result.

73

Everybody loves Raymond

by Saintbertholdt in

a while ago the user vinman started a forum thread called: "ray franz was an idiot".

the reaction to it was quite negative but i have to admit that the title of that thread was intriguing to me.

by nature i am an iconoclast.

Saintbertholdt

Maybe Franz only had second hand knowledge and wasn't totally sure if the accusations were true. It was a witch-hunt environment during that time and accusations were flying left and right.

Well Franz did not come to Greenlees' defense either. Today his reputation is blighted because no one has given any insight except for the accusations. Also the evidence must have been convincing enough to get two thirds majority on the governing body. If Franz thought it was BS why didn't he at least mention that he thought Greenlees' dismissal was unfair. He didn't even have to mention the particular accusation. He wrote about EVERYTHING else.