Posts by stocwach

103

IS the NWT really the WT Bible?

by Bleep in

just wondered how many people this this is all true.

feel free to really think about this one and provide proof and examples.

stocwach

Sorry Earnest, but your arguments are just too easy to unravel and I can't resist to yet debuff you yet one more time.

One only need to go to John 20:28 which in the NWT says "In answer Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God!" and then to 1 John 5:20 which says But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.

Now Jesus would have surely rebuked Thomas if he was incorrect or blashphemous in making such a statement, especially due to the Bible being inspired, God surely wouldn't have allowed such a distortion if it weren't true.

So you see Earnest, you are incorrect in saying that "obeisance" being chosen by the JWs to fit their theology is no different than other Bible's translating the word "worship" to fit another theology. The word "worship" has nothing to do with fitting a particular theology. It has to do with conveying what the author's intention was, which is easily deciphered when considering other verses such as above. The JWs would have complete justification in "obeisance" IF JESUS REBUKED THOMAS, but unfortunately for them, HE DIDN'T. This only proves that the NWT is simply altered to fit the theology, rather than again allowing the Bible to dictate what the theology is.

103

IS the NWT really the WT Bible?

by Bleep in

just wondered how many people this this is all true.

feel free to really think about this one and provide proof and examples.

stocwach

BTW Earnest,

Of course words are added all the time in various Bibles, and I'm well aware it occurs quite frequently. There is nothing wrong with this, AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T AFFECT CONTEXT!!!!! The NWT does not follow this rule, and therefore cannot be trusted.

103

IS the NWT really the WT Bible?

by Bleep in

just wondered how many people this this is all true.

feel free to really think about this one and provide proof and examples.

stocwach

Earnest, my mistake, I meant Philippians 2:9, and I am sorry to say once again you are wrong in your defending the NWT as being honest and forthright in that it adds brackets to words inserted. In Colossians it does, but Philippians it doesn't!!!!!!!!!! They just couldn't be quite honest enough for this blatant distortion now could they?

It is not up to the translator to decide what should be added. It is up to the translator to translate based on what the original author wrote, and to add words to the text is condemned by God.

The bottom line is the NWT cannot be trusted, because it is obvious that it has been altered to fit JW theology. Even where the NWT Translation Committee attempted to be forthright by explaining how they determined when the divine name should appear in the NT, they blatantly disregarded their own rule in 1 Peter 2:3 and 3:15!!!!!! You cannot deny this, so don't bother with your drivel, because it doesn't change this obvious deception.

Earnest, you may believe they were correct in doing so, but it puts you in the same hypocritical boat. It is not the translator's option to be selective in taking the divine name out in passages that clearly identify Jesus. It the author intended the reader to understand the verse to mean "Jehovah" when he quoted a verse that contained the divine name, then he unequivocally intended each time! You can say all you want and rant and rave, but this is a fact that cannot be disputed.

103

IS the NWT really the WT Bible?

by Bleep in

just wondered how many people this this is all true.

feel free to really think about this one and provide proof and examples.

stocwach

Sorry Ernest, but you first lose all credibility when you use the biased "Aid to Bible Understanding" as an apologetic reference source. You expect us to believe that all the Bible translators throughout the centuries in their using "holy" as the primary meaning for "hosios" have it wrong, and instead, an organization that has blatanly false prophesied on numerous occasions throughout the years and flip flopped on doctrine finally got it right 35-40 years ago by saying "loyal"? Since you appear to like doing research, show me just one more Bible translation that uses Revelation 15:4 NWT rendering.

I'm curious to hear what your ridiculous justification is for the NWT blatant use of also adding words to text (which the Bible condemns btw--you are aware of that earnest) in order to change the context when it again, doesn't fit with manmade JW theology. Let's use the examples of:

Philippians 2:5, adding the word "other" (again, this is not just an alternative word translation choice by the NWT--a Greek word doesn't even exist where this has been inserted!!!!!!!!). This one verse as it ACTUALLY APPEARS IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK (not the NWT) in the NT easily stands alone as one that clearly refutes your apologetic justification for "Jehovah" being used in the NT. Obviously this would be contrary to JW theology and a serious blow, so the GB conveniently approved (thank's to Fred Franz I'm sure) a little addition to the text.

Hmmmm, let's see, then we have 1 Colossians 1: 15-17, where the word "other" is again inserted, but this time a total of 4 times!!!!!!!!!!! Obviously the ORIGINAL GREEK TEXT is a serious blow to JW anti-Trinitarianism, so again, the words were conveniently inserted to fit the theology. Ernest, how in good conscience can you be apologetic to such a deceitful organization??????

Still not convinced at the heresy evidence here? Ok, how about this: In the NWT, every time the Greek word "proskuneo" is used in reference to God, it is translated as "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, Jn 4:20, etc.). Every time "proskuneo" is used in reference to Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance" (Mt 14:33, 28:9,28:17, Lk 24:52, Heb 1:6, etc.), even though it is the same word in the Greek .Especially compare the Greek word "prosekunhsan" used with reference to God in Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, and 19:4 and used with reference to Christ in Mt 14:33, 28:9, and 28:17. Here the NWT selectively gave different meanings to the same Greek word to fit their theology!!!!!!!!! It's interesting that in the 8 times that "hosios" occurs, the NWT in that case was consistent in translating it to "loyal", obviously because it wasn't in conflict with their theology.

Earnest, I could go on and on and on with additional blatant distortions in the NWT, but these alone are sufficient to cause you to really take a hard look at the obvious bias of the translation, which proves it cannot be trusted as a valid translation, especially knowing that the average person that JWs are quoting to in field service have no idea of these consistenties, yet will presume the Bible must say these words, and say " I guess JW's are right". It's utter deception, and the Bible specifically forbids it.

103

IS the NWT really the WT Bible?

by Bleep in

just wondered how many people this this is all true.

feel free to really think about this one and provide proof and examples.

stocwach

Earnest,

I'm sorry, but obviously all the reference sources you point out hasn't opened your eyes to how blatantly distorted to NWT is compared to other translations.

JW's have altered their Bible to fit their man made theology, rather than letting the Bible dictate theology.

Just one example can be found at Revelation 15:4. The KJV reads:

"Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

The NWT translates the Greek word "hosios" as loyal!!!!!!!!!!! The word "loyal" is not even found anywhere in the KJV, and their isn't even a definition that comes remotely close to "loyal" according to Strongs for the word "hosios". Here is the full text from the NWT:

Who will not really fear you, Jehovah, and glorify your name, because you alone are loyal? For all the nations will come and worship before you, because your righteous decrees have been made manifest.

This is a gross distortion!!! Obviously, the Governing Body had a hard time with this one, because if they had been forthright and presented it as the Greek author had intended, it would be a serious blow to their anti Trinitarianism thinking, because clearly Jesus is also spoken of as the Holy One in Acts 2:27, with the same Greek word for Holy being used! Since Revelation says that God is alone holy, and Jesus is also spoken as such, it clearly shows for their not to be contradiction in Scripture that Jesus has deity!

The most incredulous aspect of this is if the author's intention was the convey the meaning of "loyal", he would have used the Greek word for "faithful", which is "pistis" or "pistos".

I'm sorry Earnest, but you really must do more research before emphatically trying to sell your deceptive JW apologetic approach.

103

IS the NWT really the WT Bible?

by Bleep in

just wondered how many people this this is all true.

feel free to really think about this one and provide proof and examples.

stocwach

Earnest,

How can you be so naive?

The bottom line is the WT simply has changed their Bible to fit their man made theology, rather than letting the Bible dictate their theology.

The problem is since JWs are programmed not to think independently, sadly the majority of the rank and file will never see the incredulousness of the matter.

103

IS the NWT really the WT Bible?

by Bleep in

just wondered how many people this this is all true.

feel free to really think about this one and provide proof and examples.

stocwach

Bleep,

Consider the NWT version of 1 Peter 3:15: "But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect."

The KIT 1969 edition on page 18-19, says "How is a modern translator to know or determine when to render the Greek words ky'rios and theos' into the divine name in his version? By determining where the inspired Christian writers have quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures. Then he must refer back to the original to locate whether the divine name appears there. This way he can determine the identity to give to ky'rios and theos' and he can then clothe them with personality. Realizing that this is the time and place for it, we have followed this course in rendering our version of the Christian Greek Scriptures."

Now I think all JWs reading this would feel comfortable then that anytime they see "Jehovah" in the NT, that this rule must have been followed. I would also think that any rational truth seeking individual would insist on 100% adherence to a translation rule, for what good would a translation be with a double standard?

Take time to look at NWT Reference Edition. You will find a very common reference that they use is called J20, which is the "Concordance to Greek Testament" which lists all quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures. It lists 1 Peter 3:15 as a quotation from Isaiah 8:13 in which the divine name is used. If you also look on pg. 1459 in the NWT Reference Edition, you will find a footnote, which lists numerous Hebrew version references that translate Lord in that verse as Jehovah God.

So, according to the NWT committee's policy, 1 Peter 3:15 should read "But sanctify the Christ as Jehovah in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you."

THE BOTTOM LINE IS IT ISN'T THE TRANSLATORS' CHOICE TO DEVIATE FROM THEIR POLICY AND DELETE THE DIVINE NAME IN PASSAGES THAT REFER TO JESUS!!!!!! THE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN WRITER'S WORDS MUST BE CONVEYED EXACTLY!

The problem is that this obviously would be in conflict with JW theology. You will find the same discrepancy in 1 Peter 2:3, which is a quotation from Psalms 34:8 in which the divine name is used which the NWT Committee acknowledges, yet they chose not to use "Jehovah" because again, it would be in direct conflict with the theology that Jesus does not have deity.

Bleep, these are just a couple examples of numerous passages in which the NWT has been altered to fit JW doctrine. How can you subscribe to such a grossly butchered text?

38

A Quartet Of Questions For You Know...

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

given your reaction to mr. andersons letter of resignation recently posted to this board, which seemed sympathetic, i would like to ask four questions of you, which of course you are at liberty not to answer.

1 ) how do you personally feel about the fact that the wts is now moving to disfellowship mr. anderson for writing that letter?.

2) if mr. anderson were to begin posting to this board, how would you view him?.

stocwach

You Know,

Why do you continue to sputter forth with your unorthodox JW apologetic mumbo jumbo behind a computer screen with an anonymous name and a blocked email address?

If you feel you are worthy in God's eyes, why not reveal yourself to the visitors on this site and reveal yourself to the Society? What are you in fear of? I mean, obviously, your views would get you disfellowshipped in an instant, and you would no longer be part of "God's organization" by the Society's standards, but according to you, that wouldn't have a bearing in your salvation anyway, so what gives?

Everything you have stated on this thread is against the Society's teachings, so either they are right, or you are right, or you are both wrong, but you both can't be right.

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

stocwach

The real irony of You Know is that he is a JW apologist who claims to be an active JW, yet his mantra shows he himself is an apostate by the organization's own definition, although due to his demented reasoning, fails to admit this fact.

He claims instead this is not the case, and that the Society is well aware of his position on matters related to the Borg. Common logic then will tell us:

a)If what he says is true, then this fact made available to the masses of rank and file JWs would surely cause a fallout of massive proportions due to the organization exercising a double standard and not taking action against him, and prove unequivocally that this is not Jehovah's organization like everyone has been led to believe, because if it were, surely this individual would have been purged long ago so as to avoid causing divisions amongst the brothers.

or

b) You Know is merely a liar, and he would surely be disfellowshipped in an instant if his views were made known to the Society/elders, and thereby at least corroborate the perception of the masses that Jehovah's organization is being cleansed.

SORRY YOU KNOW, BUT THERE'S NO IN BETWEEN.

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

stocwach

You Know said,

Obviously apostate dubs at one time did believe that there was a solid foundation of our faith otherwise you wouldn't have spent those many years trying to convince others that you had the truth. Many of you were elders, ministerial servants, pioneers, and some even anointed. Where you that stupid?

NeonMadman brings an excellent point to the table, AND THIS IS YOUR REBUTTAL? Let me guess-- your team lost every debate in school with you as the leader!

Since this is your only reply, nevertheless it deserves a rebuttal, and the simple one would be for you to read any book on the effects of cult mind control and you would either a)retract the above comment if you are a rational person or b)denounce it as a work of Satan irrationally.

You are truly a piece of work.