konceptual99

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Posts by konceptual99

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  35

  Do JWs Regard You As An APOSTATE?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i doubt people consider me an apostate but you never know.🤓.

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  konceptual99

  Not yet. But I agreed to a shepherding call so watch this space...
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  102

  Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

  see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

  jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

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  konceptual99

  Fair points Richard and I understand the implications regarding clergy/penitent privilege however they still have a choice about how they choose to handle an allegation. Given that laws are different in different countries or even within countries I actually don't think it is a problem for an elder to ring Bethel Legal and find out what their obligations are.

  It is after this that I think the problem comes. The instructions and reality of how they are implemented on the ground have resulted in allegations not being reported to the appropriate authorities. The instructions have changed over time to try and reduce and remove the chance that a direct written instruction can be blamed but the culture still remains. The general culture of remaining loyal, not bringing Jehovah's name into disrepute and so on has limited this being challenged from the ground up.

  The WTS response to legal and civil challenge remains one of legal obfuscation. It's true that the legally correct and morally correct thing to do may conflict (e.g. does an elder supposedly bound by clergy/penitent privilege inform the police that an 12 year old girl is possibly being abused by her father) but their position seems to remain entrenched in one of "do nothing that will compromise the organisation legally" rather than be prepared to stand up and support their elders who choose to do the right thing.

  Instead of whining about "we can't do this or that because we're tied down by the laws" they should be going "damn right we told the police and we'll fight to change the law if the law is stupid" - just like they did (and continue to do) when they fought for things like not saluting the flag, freedom to preach and so on.
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  8

  Move over Star Wars...try Theocratic Wars instead!

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fky2ues_6x0

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  konceptual99

  Brilliant!
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  24

  My Son's wish granted from Make A Wish

  by azor in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we leave friday for his disney cruise wish.

  he's also a big star wars fan, and they have a star wars day on one of the seafaring days.

  to say we are all looking forward to this is an understatement.

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  konceptual99

  Great news for you and have a fantastic time!
• 
  102

  Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

  see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

  jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

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  konceptual99

  Koncept you have posted a lot of colorful commentary but no legislation showing that WT is not complying with child abuse reporting laws. You have said that wt is not acting morally -but you have shown no facts, only colorful commentary.

  You stated that I conceded the WTS always acted lawfully. My point was that the only law that ever really comes into play is that of mandatory reporting and that the WTS obligations under this have been the matter of discussion in court - therefore not 100% clear cut.
  

  I think it's clear that I have not made a big thing at all about the legal side of things. I don't really care about the legal minutiae. For me it's about the culture within the WTS that defers to organisational protectionism rather than a progressive approach that embraces contemporary best practice and suggests a willingness to look in the mirror, accept valid criticism and implement change accordingly.
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  102

  Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

  see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

  jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

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  konceptual99

  You did not answer my question :
  ".....who's moral code......."

  Obviously their code. It could be influenced by how other organisations choose to act but the WTS chooses not to change the culture and mindset.

  If you want to argue that it's actually someone else's code (e.g my code or my perception of what others' codes may be) then fine but it's missing the point IMO. Repeatedly the actions and more critically, the cultural and organisational framework surrounding how allegations have been managed, have received repeated negative analysis.

  When subjected to critical questioning all the WTS seems able to do is whine "yeah but" like a teenager being called out on their childish behaviour. Worse than that, it seems incapable of going away, reflecting and then coming back to the table with some meaningful change and progress.

  TBH, some of the defence of the WTS on here has been far, far better than anything the WT lawyers have presented. I may not agree with every point but at least there is a logic to the argument.

  (You have already conceded that wt is operating lawfully)

  mmm - yes and no. In the main there is little chance that the WTS can actually act unlawfully in a jurisdiction with no mandatory reporting requirements since no other laws typically apply. This of course does not in itself remove any potential liabilities in a civil case.

  Where laws do apply, which is essentially mandatory reporting, then there is still the question as to if individuals and the organisation have always operated within the appropriate laws applicable to them. I don't think it has always been 100% clear if specific laws have been applicable and followed.
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  102

  Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

  see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

  jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

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  konceptual99

  Interesting Sparky - I will read the document in more detail when I get a chance. Regardless, their current procedures have received criticism in court and.most notably, from the ARC. They have also been called back to discuss this with the ARC. True, they are in good company with the Catholic and Anglican churches but even these organisations have made far more changes to their procedures to bring them into line with what is generally accepted best practice.

  I think that most would agree that at best the WTS demonstrates a strong resistance to change.
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  102

  Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

  see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

  jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

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  konceptual99

  By who's moral code should wt act?

  By a moral code that that seeks to put the safety of potential victims first, a code that does not place the organisation above the person, a code that encourages those with pastoral responsibility to help the victim and their family access the right secular and professional help above ministerial activities, a code that recognises the advancements in how this matter should be handled and openly seeks to improve rather than maintain a defensive attitude of self-preservation.

  The WTS is not the only organisation with issues about their historical and indeed contemporary management of child abuse allegations. They are almost unique in how they are responding to the problem. It's this response that rightly attracts so much criticism and is IMO immoral - regardless of legal pontification.
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  102

  Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

  see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

  jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

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  konceptual99

  RO has a point that legal and moral are not the same thing. We see countless examples of where the law is an ass in this regard. As far as the WTS is concerned, however, they have a long history of boasting about how they don't just follow Ceaser's laws but go above and beyond them, perusing a moral higher ground. They have a recent example of this with respect to the building efficiency codes at Warwick.

  Rather bizarrely however, when it comes to child protection they seem to go above and beyond the other way, seeking to hide behind legal obsfucation to minimise their responsibilities and liabilities. Worse than that, they have employed control tactics that have undermined the better judgement of parents and other responsible adults who could have taken action.

  The counter side of RO's argument is that just because the WTS is operating lawfully does not absolve them of also acting morally.
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  102

  Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

  by darkspilver in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

  see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

  jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

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  konceptual99

  Thanks for these posts Barbara, darkspilver and John Redwood. It's all very enlightening. I can see exactly why the WTS chose to settle. From the early information I had thought that their position was quite strong to create an argument that their liability was limited in this case but it seems they simply led themselves up a blind alley through continued obfuscation and misdirection.

  Instead of simply explaining that the organisation has a legal, corporate side and an ecclesiastical side which has an overlap and building an understanding of how their legal and ecclesiastical responsibilities work, they seem to have once again tried to use the blurred lines to avoid any definition at all. The result - they end up looking stupid, obstructive and two faced.

  To be frank, I think if you explain many of these things openly then it does have a certain logic to it. Someone may not agree with you but at least the pathway from A to B is clear (e.g. JWs position on homosexuality, the need to call Bethel legal when an allegation of abuse is made). Instead of being clear, concise and logical, with at least some confidence in their own position, the WT seems consistently unable to avoid complicating things by having no clarity and consistency.

  It's almost like they don't believe their own bullshit.