Posts by konceptual99

102

Day 2 - Fessler vs. Watchtower – Thomas Jefferson Jr takes the stand in Jehovah’s Witness Child Abuse Trial

by darkspilver in

day two (wednesday 8 february 2017).

see also posts and threads regarding: pre-trial / day one / day one update / day five (last day, settlement).

jefferson: not totally.. zeff: okay.

konceptual99

Thanks for these posts Barbara, darkspilver and John Redwood. It's all very enlightening. I can see exactly why the WTS chose to settle. From the early information I had thought that their position was quite strong to create an argument that their liability was limited in this case but it seems they simply led themselves up a blind alley through continued obfuscation and misdirection.

Instead of simply explaining that the organisation has a legal, corporate side and an ecclesiastical side which has an overlap and building an understanding of how their legal and ecclesiastical responsibilities work, they seem to have once again tried to use the blurred lines to avoid any definition at all. The result - they end up looking stupid, obstructive and two faced.

To be frank, I think if you explain many of these things openly then it does have a certain logic to it. Someone may not agree with you but at least the pathway from A to B is clear (e.g. JWs position on homosexuality, the need to call Bethel legal when an allegation of abuse is made). Instead of being clear, concise and logical, with at least some confidence in their own position, the WT seems consistently unable to avoid complicating things by having no clarity and consistency.

It's almost like they don't believe their own bullshit.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

konceptual99

And regardless of the validity of the case all cases must be defended and that costs a lot of money and when the cost of the defense exceeds the damages sought it is cheaper to settle. Defense costs money win or loose.

This is true however given the increasing number of people looking to claim against the WT then if they could set some precedents that limit their liability then it would be cheaper in the long run and deter people from making spurious claims.

The WTS tried tirelessly to avoid any liabilities in the Candice Conti case. There was no quick settlement there as they thought they'd bully the victim, out finance her and dishearten everyone else thinking of doing the same.

They lost the Candic Conti case. They are facing increasing secular scrutiny of historic and current abuse policies. The internet is allowing more and more people to see more and more cases of abuse by Witnesses in the public domain. Regardless of the organisational culpability this problem is not going to go away and the WTS is now caught in a dilemma of how to deal with this.

That is all they want money and that is all they settle for, they don't care about child abuse confidentiality and the wt but only as it applies to their case in dollars.

I guess at a base level this is true however it could be implied that any claim is essentially vindictive money grabbing by a victim. I think you would have to have been a victim to really understand the cathartic benefit of being able to have your day in court and see some kind of justice done.

5

Very Good FYI! (It is about Nutrition)

by Iamallcool in

jw
friends

http://www.nutritionfoodrecipes.com/2017/02/probably-didnt-know-never-eat-cucumbers-tomatoes-salad/.

konceptual99

Any site that promotes essential oils as a preventative and cure for cancer should be ignored.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

konceptual99

The slightly bizarre thing is that right now in Australia the Catholic Church is having it's dirty laundry about it's payouts to child abuse victims aired as part of the ARC yet the WTS seems intent on following in it's footsteps and using it's finances to try and keep a lid on the bad publicity.

If the experience of other organisations is anything to go by then it will catch up with them at some point.

It's also funny to note how keen they always are to stress how much the organisation is ahead of the curve as far as bet practice and going above and beyond statutory requirements is concerned when it suits yet are years behind as far as their child protection policies are concerned and seemingly unable to learn from the experience of other organisations.

The hubris is overwhelming.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

konceptual99

You make good points ScenicViewer and the more I think about the more I agree that ultimately they must have calculated that the potential bad press was not worth the effort even though IMO the WT lawyers could probably have made a good job of minimising the WT liability in this case.

I'd also not taken into account their continued refusal to abide by court orders to submit their database. I assume the mere fact they are prepared to do this prejudices their arguments about doing everything they can to protect children from abuse even if court action is not in the same jurisdiction.

You are right that the WTS needs a win of which it can boast and it is encouraging that even in this case they seem to have assessed it was not worth it.

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

konceptual99

I find the language of the attorney saying, "A matter with the Jehovah’s Witnesses has been resolved" sounding just like WT.
I bet the payout was big because this really looks bad.

The language used is very interesting and I suspect was such to meet the terms of the settlement and driven by the WTS.

On the basis of what has been presented publicly along with the typical WT legal MO, I am still a little surprised however that the WTS did not push down the legal line further and try and establish this case as a precedent for limiting their liability and culpability, throwing the parents under the bus on the way.

I wonder if they are actually more keen to silence the noise than have a very public fight?

52

Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses settle suit alleging cover-up of child sex abuse

by AndersonsInfo in

https://www.revealnews.org/blog/jehovahs-witnesses-settle-lawsuit-alleging-coverup-of-child-sex-abuse/.

by trey bundy / february 17, 2017 .

the jehovah’s witnesses settled a lawsuit this week brought by a pennsylvania woman who says the religion’s leaders covered up sexual abuse she suffered as a teenager.. the settlement came five days into a trial in which stephanie fessler, a former jehovah’s witness, claimed the religion’s parent corporation violated pennsylvania’s child abuse reporting laws by instructing local leaders – known as elders – not to report her allegations to police.. according to fessler, a middle-aged jehovah’s witness woman, terry monheim, began sexually abusing her when she was 14. at 15, fessler disclosed the abuse to her parents.

konceptual99

My reading of the information that has been presented in this particular case does throw some questions onto the role of the parents. There are numerous reasons why they may not have taken matters in their own hands, none of which absolves them of their part in this sorry tale.

This is why I find the outcome of the case interesting. In my simplistic view the WTS should have a pretty reasonable case to argue that the congregation and organisation was not negligent and that the parents bore the primary responsibility given their knowledge of the situation. I think the legal arguments for this are potentially far more justifiable than other high profile cases we have seen.

The interesting thing is that the case has been settled out of court. It is possible that the victim's legal did a 180 and withdrew the case but I don't think the way the reporting of the outcome has been presented suggests htis. Everything points to an out of court financial settlement and associated gagging order.

Why?

The WTS has a history of straining the gnat with these type of cases, using their legal and financial might to overwhelm the other side. They argue the toss over legal detail in order to try and extricate themselves from liability. If there was one case that would seemingly give them a decent platform on which to successfully argue the WTS has zero liability and set a decent precedent then this one would appear to fit the bill.

So why settle? Why do it so quickly? They have pushed and pushed and pushed on other cases where their culpability is far easier to prove so why not push here when things, frankly, are in their favour. Why make an offer when they could (IMHO) have stood their ground and had a good chance of winning?

The only thing I can think is risk management - make an offer to the victim knowing her legal team would probably recommend taking it and close the whole thing down. It just does not seem to fit the typical WTS legal team MO...

36

In Your Opinion Do Today's Elders Recognize That The Religion Is BS?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i always wondered that while i was in especially when i was an elder.

i recognize that some people,elders included are brain-dead.

but do you think that the average older today knows it's all nonsense?

konceptual99

I know of two brothers who were elders and are no longer because they recognise faults in the doctrine and practices. They still are (AFAIK) victims of cognitive dissonance however and remain essentially "in" because they square the circle mentally with reasoning like "go back to the fundamentals - do I believe there is a God and he has a purpose. Yes. Then the rest doesn't matter".

I think there is a growing number of brothers like this and, yes, some of them will remain as elders and servants for some time.

46

Circuit Assemblies in the "Good Old Days"

by BluesBrother in

jw
friends

just been reminiscing about how c/a's have changed since we were young.

i remember when they started friday night in some rented hall , as well as the two weekend days.

saturday morning was a brief session then field ministry (which only a few performed ) and sunday sessions.. in the free time around the venue we just used to hang out socialising and eyeing up the girls.

konceptual99

With you L&F. Didn't know Albert Broad however I heard lots of stories about JB from my parents, apparently he stayed with us when he was CO/DO in Worcestershire when I was a child and all they, along with what I have witnessed of DC, have done is affirm in my head that these so called "characters" are just self obsessed, big fish in a small pond, frustrated actor types.

So what if they were entertaining? So what if they went off message? They were still spouting nonsense. Here we are nowadays laughing at the WTS putting form over function with it's glossy but shallow representation of it's message yet that's what these "characters" really were - glossing over the rubbish of message with entertaining delivery.

When you are in you love it but scratch the surface and it was the same bullshite then as it is now.

46

Circuit Assemblies in the "Good Old Days"

by BluesBrother in

jw
friends

just been reminiscing about how c/a's have changed since we were young.

i remember when they started friday night in some rented hall , as well as the two weekend days.

saturday morning was a brief session then field ministry (which only a few performed ) and sunday sessions.. in the free time around the venue we just used to hang out socialising and eyeing up the girls.

konceptual99

The present regime has the arrogance to believe that their programme is so wonderful that it is all the brothers want to experience. It misses the point entirely that the weekend was one of association, friendship and a sense of being a part of something.

Whilst I agree with your point on the emphasis of the event having changed and that the social/community side of things has been pared back to a minimum through "simplification" over the years I would suggest that for those young ones currently in the organisation assemblies still represent fairly serious events in the social calendar as opportunities to scope around for likely romantic opportunities.

They are also still important to the R&F as markers of critical events to attend. They have not diminished in their import as clues as to the "spirituality" of individuals as to if you attend, are participating, volunteering, take notes or spew out nonsense about the event on your social media feeds.