myself, tr, and jeff?.
btw i have met tr and he is a great person..
My active JW days were in southeastern Washington. Tri-Cities.
Two of you mention you live in or near Carnation. I know a very lonely Ukranian exWitness who lives on a farm there. He's not on the Internet, but he loves to go to exWitness get-togethers. Name is Alec Lebed, if any of you know him.
some questions for the believer!.
1) how would you define god, and why are you so convinced that there is one?
2) if everything needs a creator, then who or what created god?
I'll go one time on this round. (I don't usually do this. I must be in a good mood today.)
SOME QUESTIONS FOR THE BELIEVER!
1) How would you define God, and why are you so convinced that there is one?
The Creator. Because I see creation.
2) If everything needs a creator, then who or what created God?
How would we know? This is one of those skeptic questions that calls for a reply that we could not possibly know the answer to if there is one. I only know that what I see I don't believe could happen by itself. How it was made I don't know, and how the Creator was made I don't know, and don't think humans can know. I have trouble knowing how plutonium is made, but I know somebody made it.
3) How can something that cannot be described be said to exist?
Its difficult to describe lots of things. Try describing green to a color-blind person. Black holes.
4) Since there are countless religions in the world today claiming to be the one true religion, why do you think yours is truer than theirs?
Same as you do. Okay, same as you think your non-religion is truer than their religion. Everybody thinks they are right--not just about religion.
5) Can more than one of these religions be right?
Yes.
6) If you feel in your heart that your religion is the right one, how do you answer those of other faiths who claim the same thing?
Not applicable.
7) How do you settle the debate and find out which of these religions, if any, is the right one?
I don't. Let them do their own homework.
8) Why does God allow all these false religions to exist?
Probably because doctrine is not the issue. But that's just a guess.
Why does the Government let crime exist?
9) Is the bloody history of Christianity consistent with what is supposed to be a religion of love, or does it simply illustrate the consequences of abandoning reason for faith?
It demonstrates the reality of hypocracy.
10) If everything is the product of a grand design by an omniscient, benevolent designer, why is the history of life a record of horrible suffering, blundering waste, and miserable failures? Why does this God go through billions of years of such carnage without yet arriving at His goal?
Again, you ask us to know the reasons of the Creator, which cannot be known. But I will speculate that in order to understand good, one must understand evil. How could you ever know how beautiful a sunset is if that is all you ever saw, or how delicious a peach is if that is all you ever had to eat? I tend to believe this life is for that purpose. The promise is that this existence will end. Your concept of love may not be that of the Creator's. That evil exists does not give evidence that there was not a Creator. It only challenges the skeptic's insistence on what a loving Creator must be.
11) Why did God intervene so many times in human affairs during antiquity (according to the Bible) and yet not do anything during the Holocaust of the Second World War?
Such as what?
12) Why should one¹s inner convictions about the existence of God indicate that He/She/They/It exists outside of that person¹s mind?
Because everything else we see in the universe seems to exist there.
13) Can a God who would abandon His children when they needed him the most still be considered all good?
Yes. It may seem harsh, but if a child will not listen to a parent's instruction, it may be the most loving thing to let them suffer by finding out for themselves. In the "tough love" treatment of addicts and alcoholics, this is the therapy that works. If people don't learn from experience, they sometimes don't learn. Few learn just by being told (faith).
14) If something is not rational, should it be believed anyway?
Of course. Is the wind rational? Rationale has to do with reasoning, not necessarily reality. Is insanity rational? Is it real?
15) If the God of the Bible is all good, why does He himself say that He created evil? (Isaiah 45:7)
Another speculation question asking us to know the mind of God (as Steven Hawking called it). A 'good' cook can bake a 'bad' cake if there is a 'good' reason to do so.
Why does it prove something to you to ask questions that cannot be answered by humans, even if God has a reason?
16) Is there a better way than reason to acquire knowledge and truth?
Observation and practical experience.
17) If you would answer #16 with faith, then why are there so many contradictory faiths in the world?
Well, I didn't bite that one.
18) Is comfort more important to you than intellectual integrity?
No.
19) What would it take to convince you that you are wrong?
To wake up from a dream and find that nothing really exists.
20) If nothing can convince you that you are wrong, then why should your faith be considered anything other than a cult?
I'm not big enough to be a cult.
21) If an atheist lives a decent, moral life, why should a loving, compassionate God care whether or not we believe in Him/Her/It?
I don't think He/She/It does. That's why it says they will be judged according to their deeds, not by what they believed. (Rev.20:13; 22:12; Matt.16:27) That may be the difference between the symbolic 144,000 (believers) and the 'rest of the dead', in Biblical analogy.
A personal opinion: One of the reasons God may not reveal Himself in the sense that skeptics require is for the very reason that we will show our true nature in the absence of such intimidating revelation. Just speculation of course.
22) Why do so many religious people thank God when they survive a disaster, yet fail to be angry with him for causing the disaster in the first place?
That's the same thing the Israelites would do--imo. That's why the OT does not properly reflect the real nature of God. That is why Jesus said He had made God's Name known to men. In my opinion, these religious people you refer to have a well-intentioned mis-perception of God, just like skeptics do.
23) If you demand that the atheist disprove the Judeo-Christian God, are you prepared to disprove the existence of Zeus, Odin, Ra and all the other ancient gods and goddesses?
Not applicable in my case. I don't make any such demand on atheists.
However, you no doubt realize that believers of Zeus, Odin, Ra, et.al., also don't believe in the Christian God.
24) Why is the number of atheists in prisons disproportionally much smaller than their numbers in the general population?
I wasn't aware that it was, but could the same be said for any number of groups. For example, are there fewer Mormons than atheists?
25) Is the brutal, vengeful and bloodthirsty God as depicted in the Old Testament still a loving God?
My inclination is that God's image in the OT is reflected through the mind of the writer. When times were harsh, God is represented as harsh. It is not unlike Christians who will attribute everything that happens in their life to the will of God. Yet, notice how loving God seemed in the writings of David and Solomon, when Israel was rich.
Again, that is why Jesus said that He had made God's Name known to men; indicating that His Name had not been made known in the OT.
("Again, you have heard it written, ... but I say to you ...")
26) Should any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason be trusted?
No.
27) How can the same God that, according to the Old Testament, killed everybody on Earth except for eight people be considered as anything other than evil?
If warnings come that Mount St.Helens is going to erupt, and the people refuse to leave, so when it does erupt they get killed. Does that make God evil?
This response, of course, is taking the position of your question being a Bible literalist.
28) Is the acceptance of religious mysticism, magic and miracles consistent with our understanding of good mental health?
Generally speaking, no. (Maybe that's another reason why God doesn't do it.)
29) Must we hate our families and ourselves in order to be good Christians? (Luke 14:26)
Only if you don't let your right hand know what your left hand is thinking, and pluck out your eye if it offends you. And if someone pops you on the butt, turn to them the other cheek.
30) Since the ancient world abounded with tales of resurrected Savior-Gods that were supposed to have returned from the dead to save humanity, why is the Jesus myth any truer than all the others?
From my personal perspective, based on my own study of the subject, I believe because of a number of incredible things that happened during his brief ministry, especially the events of the last week of his life in Jerusalem, and thereafter in the lives of his followers, that corresponded with the symbolism of ancient Israel, which appears to me to go way beyond the possibility of coincidence. But that is too involved to discuss in a mere post on this forum.
31) If the Bible is the standard for morality, why does it not forbid slavery and war?
So? Now they call it "employment"! Big deal!
Would it do any good to forbid war? Any more than to forbid adultery?
32) If the Bible is the inerrant word of God, why does it contain so many factual errors, such as the two contradictory accounts of Creation in Genesis?
You'll have to ask the fundamentalist literalists that one.
33) Why isn¹t the Bible written in a straightforward way that leaves no doubt about what it means?
Like it says, so the blind will not see and the deaf will not hear.
In other words, to make it easy for those who do not want to believe to not believe.
34) The last time Christianity attained total power, it resulted in the Dark Ages, so why should we expect anything different from Christian fundamentalists today?
Egads! Now that would be a 'great tribulation such as the world has never seen'.
35) Has anyone ever been killed in the name of atheism?
I don't know.
36) Why does history show that every time a fundamentalist religion has gained power, tyranny and persecutions have soon followed?
Because that is what happened.
in two paragraphs in the june 15/00 wt qfr on blood, tertullian is quoted a few times in the 5th and 6th paragraphs on page 29.
( http://www.jwfiles.com/blood-wt6-15-00.htm.
i have been trying to find the exact quotes from tertullian.
hawk:
I'm very interested in your involvement with AJWRB. Would you consider posting me privately:
[email protected]
Thanks,
a subject often marked by strong controversy is calmly and carefully analyzed.
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just wondering what teachings ray franz denounced after leaving the borg.
i think he never strayed from the trinity issue?
?
Ray disagrees with just about every Watchtower doctrine. This is covered in great detail in his second book, "In Search of Christian Freedom". He totally renounces their bogus chronology, the two-class Christian precept (which was a MAJOR behind-the-scene issue in the 1980 headquarters shake-up--see http://www.xjw.com/where.html ). He does not believe in salvation through an organization of any kind.
While he continues to be a Bible believing Christian, about the only thing he still agrees with the WT on is their Adventist stand regarding the trinity, soul, and hell doctrines, and their political neutrality, which is similar to the stand of quite a number of former JWs.
i put my story in the personal experiences, would you believe me if i told you?
i have asked the fbi to investigate the agent who came here from new york and told the town of kalispell that if they destroyed my family, they could l have all our assets(we have alot of crooks).
i have gotten no response.
Gloria (spinner):
Please post me privately asap at [email protected]
I have personal knowledge of the JW clans in Kalispell. Would really like to hear from you.
fred franz discredited a gb -- part ii .
after elaborating on how jesus christ had 'used' c. t. russell as a modern-day evangelizer, franz continued his talk with an historical look at the origins of the gilead school, evidently intending to remind his audience that it was not a "governing body", but the president of the society who had been 'used' by god to bring about this marvelous educational institution.
his comments regarding how the society's president was "viewed" are of particular note, as they suggest what the governing body's nearly year-long discussions were aimed at bringing about ...well, so that watch tower bible and tract society, uh, operated throughout the years, and then, to make the story short, we come down to the year 1942. and i can remember a special meeting that was held on thursday, september the 24th, of the year 1942. a new president had, eh, arisen to preside over the affairs of the watch tower bible and tract society.
It is interesting that, after a nearly year-long struggle to wrest control of the Society from its then president, Nathan Knorr, the Governing Body twenty-five years later has seemingly relinquished that control by resigning their positions as directors and transferring oversight of the existing and newly created legal entities to others.
And Knorr seemingly, as far as it was published to membership at large, willingly relinquished sole control back in 1975. That's why I think the recent 'relinquishing' and resignation of Henshal was much the same. The power was wrested from the GB. My suspician is that JWs will hear less and less about the "Faithful and discreet slave" as being the "Governing body", or even the 144,000. It will be interesting to see.
One wonders whether these recent developments will-like similar adjustments in the past--become future "fulfillments" of prophetic speculation and a divinely ordained corrective realignment of "God's Organization."
Or if they will just quietly fade into oblivian. The less they say, the less we exJW "apostates" can refute.
What I have always found curious is that when this wresting of power from Knorr occurred, it was months before they expected Armageddon in 1975. I have wondered why the other members of the so-called "governing body" didn't have more pressing matters in those "last hours" before the end. Couldn't it wait until after Armageddon? Who know, maybe some or all of them would be raptured to heaven. (Or were they really beginning to doubt Fred Franz's predictions by then? Maybe that was in some way influencing this concern of leadership?) Just thinking.
have this year's jw dcs had any of the gb as speakers?.
just curious.
The reason for my question is wondering just what is the roll of the Governing Body now? Or how are they perceived?
We have known for a long time they don't write the Watchtower or participate in such mundane things as regular door-to-door. Until recently at least, they have made appearances at the district assemblies to hype up the rank-and-file with loyalty pep talks to generate enthusiam for selling the latest publications. Now that they have 'resigned' (been replaced) from the Watchtower corporation, just how are they perceived as fulfilling the role of the F&DS? Are they even speaking at District Assemblies any more?
It seems with the reorganization of the organization, the central WT precept of a F&DS (or at least of that being the GB) may be another one of their infamous dogmas that is being religated to fade away into oblivian. Otherwise, what is the current role of the Governing Body?
have this year's jw dcs had any of the gb as speakers?.
just curious.
Have this year's JW DCs had any of the GB as speakers?
Just curious.
i got my first crank mailing today.
it was a large envelope containing the following:.
1. two paper plates together.. 2. plastic fork and spoon.. 3. three small packets of ketchup.. 4. one packet of mayonnaise.. 5. two packets of salt and pepper.. 6. pair of old boxer shorts with the seat ripped out.. no message or writing, perhaps what is listed above is the message in totality.
silentlambs:
Check your e-mail. I sent you a private post that may shed some light on this.
