it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.
"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.
"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".
I'm sorry that I inserted the text 2 times. There was a hang-up. The text arrangement can be better too. Can you feel with me. I am writing hours and hours and then that.
Should I better insert hot pictures? Perhaps they would get more popular, and could better demonstrate what a live-like imagenery is?
Greetings TWOY
it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.
"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.
"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".
Dear Vanderhofen,
you want save the honor of our loving God and the Bible by some very fine but complicated arguments that are along the watchtower-line. Your arguments have much depht and substance. I feel your real pleasure to understand each single passage. I whish you sucess in commenting all the scriptures in the greek scriptures (i.e. New Testmanent) in your book. And if you allow, this is now my attempt of an answer to your bible study. But as you now only very few people will be interested in such a matter.
The hell is togehter with thoughts about the personal eternal future an unpopular issue, I answer merely because I have been a witness for over 10 years and I wanted to know the real catolic teaching for myself. Should the witnesses not better know what the catolics realy belief if they are permantly making house calls? I cannot accept the uncritical biblicism of the watchtower. Would not be the watchtower-sect then it would not be necessary at all to speak about that in our time.
Dear Lisa Rose, The hell is nothing to be afraid of if you are not a very bad guy. Thus catolics are not debating about the hell at all, but the witnesses permanently threaten the true and ancient church with pictures of annihilation in their “Armageddon Fata Morgana” dont they? The church never believed in eternal sentence or eternal punishmnt for persons that were born in the wrong countries, in an other religion, or for heretics that fight against the church, that have the wrong flavor of christiany or of thous who found the evidence for god not compelling or believable. Jesus did not teach such complicated things and the church does not teach such a stuff. The church has to love even their enemies, even the witnesses that condemn, defame it since 100 years and more. (especially since 1914 the kingdom came) The catolic church has been asked if the witnesses should be an approved religion in our country. And the church accepted it. And now the witness have the same rights in our country as the catolic church has. That is our attitude towards other religions and we hope that the witnesses will change someday their attitude too!The church is in permant contact with the Jews, the Muslims and the other religions. But the witness dont want a contact to the oldest church in the world, instead they contacted the United Nations. (their are wonderful texts and publications of the church which show the catolic attidute towards other religions). Are you interested?
God does not damn/condem anybody but i am deciding myself for communion with god or against it. This is meant with judgment: that the sinners is confronted with the reality or perhaps a final rightousness if you want name it so. Furthermore Jesus is judge and we need not be afraid of being jugded by him, he is our best friend.
That was longtime untold, it is no new light but the truth, that I, TWOY, tell you and
that all saints of the church and all christian proclaim today on 5/5/2014:
The judgement day is the day when our Lord returns, when we see him again a second time.
The judgment day is a day of joy.
The jugdment day is the day when everything will become good again.
Please Lord Jesus come soon.
Dear Vanderhofen,
Preface:What you addressed:
You addressed already some bible passages like
Pauls words to the Romans 6:23 “For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life”. Your point is that another further punishment is not thinkable and that eternal suffering or existence is not the penalty for sin.
Torment and eternal are only cominbed or juxtaposed in high symbolic texts
if torment or suffering is used as image, it can mean in reality only punishment to death
Punishment could merely be a annihilation or destruction shortly: the death
- you mention the traditional few of intermediate state of the sole.
I. Imagery and reality at witnesses and at catolics
I am studing the catolic answers as I think it is impossble that all the christian teachers beginning with Origenes have understood the matter incorrect and I believe too that Jesus Christ would not have founded a church at all, if it could totally error in the fundamental beliefs about the final judgment of each individual. My present understanding is that in catolic faith, hell is not a real place of torment, but only a description of the bad consequence in which I can bring myself, by totally refusing the loving hand.
The catolic church does not teach that God is the one that punishes, but the words and pictures of punishment (“sentence”, “vengeance”, “anger”, “suffering” “getting lost eternally”, “eternal ruin” “weeping and gnashing of teeth”,”eternal fire”, “torment” or e.g. “unquenchable fire” in Luke 3:17) are interpreted by the catolic church as “visualisation” of the sinners selfdecision, thus not merely as unmeaningful symbols, for as you see the eternal fate of the sinner is in image and reality the same.
God does not damn/condem anybody but i am deciding myself for communion with god or against it. This is meant with judgment: that the sinners is confronted with the reality or perhaps a final rightousness if you want name it so. Furthermore Jesus is judge and we need not be afraid of being jugded by him, he is our best friend. So the
The catolic church and the “churchfathers” did not adopt pagan ideas (i.e. Body of thought) but words of Jesus himself and the apostels were the foundation for a hell doctrine, the picture of the gehenna is the most used to describe the eternal fate. [[In Islam too]] These picture were not pagan influenced phantasies or false speculations but solely visualisations that were common known in the mindset in Judea of the 1 st cent. A.D. (e.g. Demotic usage of the words “sheol”, “gehenna”, tartarus”). The bible has not been translated false, the hell pictures did not come trough a false undertanding of the hebrew or greek words. That is an erroneur tought of the watchtower. It was not that that resulted in to catolic hell, the pictures are all in the bible. The NT took up the tradition of the old testament. And the Gehenna idea of a future place of punishment overlays the idea of the sheol and replaced it.
So catolic dogma derived from sheol and gehenna. The dogma means that that our future life is threatened of the real possiblity of eternal failure by the reason of our own free decision. [catechism: Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.] You see the catolic dogma of hell is liable to our interpretation.
The hell is nothing to be afraid of if you are not a murder or a Hitler. Thus catolics are not debating about the hell at all, but the witnesses permanently threaten the true and ancient church with pictures of annihilation in their “Armageddon Fata Morgana” dont they?
The hell is unfortunatle a sad issue, I answer merely because I have been a witness for over 10 years and I wanted to know the real catolic teaching for myself. I cannot accept the uncritical biblicism of the watchtower. Would not be the watchtower-sect then it would not be necessary at all to speak about that in our time.
Thus short: As you see the imagery stands for a real possibilty of personal failure [the images were mainly 1) idea of “sheol” - grave death, darkness, loneliness and
2) idea of “gehenna” - place of punishment, absolute absence of Gods communion by selfdecision and freewill]
But we should not visualize and speculate to much. We must not create fear of the hell in little children least of all.
And we should not creat fear of armageddon in little children least of all! In the middle age the state of the church was so horrible that it was necessary to visualize really much. The meanders of the catolic church in the middle age, the big errors of its leaders, encouraged a Dante Alegieri to write an epos “the Divine comedy”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy In the carriage of the church sits the babylon whore. Wasn't he afraid of the pope, would be interested to know? He used the common middleage ideas and specualtions about the afterlife, you find the ideas in Islam and Judaism too, it were demotic or popular pictures in his time like the biblical pictures represent the mindset of the 1st century A.D.
Examples for Imagery and real consequences are the same:
Example 1 : “His winnowing shovel is in his hand to clean up his threshing floor completely and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.” (NWT 2013, Luke 3:17) (in the greek text τὸ δὲ ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ (as'-bes-tos = inextinguishable, unquenchable – Strongs NT 762 - http://biblehub.com/greek/762.htm)
Example 2: “And he will pay back to each one according to his works: everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; however, for those who are contentious and who disobey the truth but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and anger. There will be tribulation and distress on every person who works what is harmful, on the Jew first and also on the Greek; but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (NWT 2013, Romans 2:6-10)
If you are heatresistable :-) you may read Jesus words:Matt. 5:21-22,Matt. 10:28,see also Luke 12:5 , Matt. 23:15, Matt. 23:29-
So much for today, now let me dring my hot coffee. :-)
In my next attempt i would like to write about, if you are interested at all.
II. Is there punishment after death (catolic) or is death the punishment (JW)you make a great plan to define the biblical terms.
Dear Vanderhofen, Dear LisaRose
you want save the honor of our loving God and the Bible by some very fine but complicated arguments that are along the watchtower-line. Your arguments have much depht and substance. I feel your real pleasure to understand each single passage. I whish you sucess in commenting all the scriptures in the greek scriptures (i.e. New Testmanent) in your book. And if you allow, this is now my attempt of an answer to your bible study. But as you now only very few people will be interested in such a matter.
The hell is togehter with thoughts about the personal eternal future an unpopular issue, I answer merely because I have been a witness for over 10 years and I wanted to know the real catolic teaching for myself. Should the witnesses not better know what the catolics realy belief if they are permantly making house calls? I cannot accept the uncritical biblicism of the watchtower. Would not be the watchtower-sect then it would not be necessary at all to speak about that in our time.
Dear Lisa Rose, The hell is nothing to be afraid of if you are not a murder or a Hitler. Thus catolics are not debating about the hell at all, but the witnesses permanently threaten the true and ancient church with pictures of annihilation in their “Armageddon Fata Morgana” dont they? The church never believed in eternal sentence or eternal punishmnt for persons that were born in the wrong countries, in an other religion, or for heretics that fight against the church, that have the wrong flavor of christiany or of thous who found the evidence for god not compelling or believable. Jesus did not teach such complicated things and the church does not teach such a stuff. The church has to love even their enemies, even the witnesses that condemn, defame it since 100 years and more. (especially since 1914 the kingdom came) The catolic church has been asked if the witnesses should be an approved religion in our country. And the church accepted it. And now the witness have the same rights in our country as the catolic church has. That is our attitude towards other religions and we hope that the witnesses will change someday their attitude too!The church is in permant contact with the Jews, the Muslims and the other religions. But the witness dont want a contact to the oldest church in the world, instead they contacted the United Nations. (their are wonderful texts and publications of the church which show the catolic attidute towards other religions). Are you interested?
God does not damn/condem anybody but i am deciding myself for communion with god or against it. This is meant with judgment: that the sinners is confronted with the reality or perhaps a final rightousness if you want name it so. Furthermore Jesus is judge and we need not be afraid of being jugded by him, he is our best friend.
That was longtime untold, it is no new light but the truth, that I, TWOY tell you and
that all saints of the church and all christian proclaim:
The judgement day is the day when our Lord returns, when we see him again a second time.
The judgment day is a day of joy.
The jugdment day is the day when everything will become good again.
Dear Vanderhofen,
Preface:What you addressed:
You addressed already some bible passages like
Pauls words to the Romans 6:23 “For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life”. Your point is that another further punishment is not thinkable and that eternal suffering or existence is not the penalty for sin.- Torment and eternal are only cominbed or juxtaposed in high symbolic texts
- if torment or suffering is used as image, it can mean in reality only punishment to death
Punishment could merely be a annihilation or destruction shortly: the death
- you mention the traditional few of intermediate state of the sole.
I. Imagery and reality at witnesses and at catolics
I am studing the catolic answers as I think it is impossble that all the christian teachers beginning with Origenes have understood the matter incorrect and I believe too that Jesus Christ would not have founded a church at all, if it could totally error in the fundamental beliefs about the final judgment of each individual. My present understanding is that in catolic faith, hell is not a real place of torment, but only a description of the bad consequence in which I can bring myself, by totally refusing the loving hand.
The catolic church does not teach that God is the one that punishes, but the words and pictures of punishment (“sentence”, “vengeance”, “anger”, “suffering” “getting lost eternally”, “eternal ruin” “weeping and gnashing of teeth”,”eternal fire”, “torment” or e.g. “unquenchable fire” in Luke 3:17) are interpreted by the catolic church as “visualisation” of the sinners selfdecision, thus not merely as unmeaningful symbols, for as you see the eternal fate of the sinner is in image and reality the same.
God does not damn/condem anybody but i am deciding myself for communion with god or against it. This is meant with judgment: that the sinners is confronted with the reality or perhaps a final rightousness if you want name it so. Furthermore Jesus is judge and we need not be afraid of being jugded by him, he is our best friend. So the
The catolic church and the “churchfathers” did not adopt pagan ideas (i.e. Body of thought) but words of Jesus himself and the apostels were the foundation for a hell doctrine, the picture of the gehenna is the most used to describe the eternal fate. [[In Islam too]] These picture were not pagan influenced phantasies or false speculations but solely visualisations that were common known in the mindset in Judea of the 1 st cent. A.D. (e.g. Demotic usage of the words “sheol”, “gehenna”, tartarus”). The bible has not been translated false, the hell pictures did not come trough a false undertanding of the hebrew or greek words. That is an erroneur tought of the watchtower. It was not that that resulted in to catolic hell, the pictures are all in the bible. The NT took up the tradition of the old testament. And the Gehenna idea of a future place of punishment overlays the idea of the sheol and replaced it.
So catolic dogma derived from sheol and gehenna. The dogma means that that our future life is threatened of the real possiblity of eternal failure by the reason of our own free decision. [catechism: Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.] You see the catolic dogma of hell is liable to our interpretation.
The hell is nothing to be afraid of if you are not a murder or a Hitler. Thus catolics are not debating about the hell at all, but the witnesses permanently threaten the true and ancient church with pictures of annihilation in their “Armageddon Fata Morgana” dont they?
The hell is unfortunatle a sad issue, I answer merely because I have been a witness for over 10 years and I wanted to know the real catolic teaching for myself. I cannot accept the uncritical biblicism of the watchtower. Would not be the watchtower-sect then it would not be necessary at all to speak about that in our time.
Thus short: As you see the imagery stands for a real possibilty of personal failure [the images were mainly 1) idea of “sheol” - grave death, darkness, loneliness and
2) idea of “gehenna” - place of punishment, absolute absence of Gods communion by selfdecision and freewill]
But we should not visualize and speculate to much. We must not create fear of the hell in little children least of all.
And we should not creat fear of armageddon in little children least of all! In the middle age the state of the church was so horrible that it was necessary to visualize really much. The meanders of the catolic church in the middle age, the big errors of its leaders, encouraged a Dante Alegieri to write an epos “the Divine comedy”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy In the carriage of the church sits the babylon whore. Wasn't he afraid of the pope, would be interested to know? He used the common middleage ideas and specualtions about the afterlife, you find the ideas in Islam and Judaism too, it were demotic or popular pictures in his time like the biblical pictures represent the mindset of the 1st century A.D.
Imagery and real consequences are the same:
Example 1 : “His winnowing shovel is in his hand to clean up his threshing floor completely and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.” (NWT 2013, Luke 3:17) (in the greek text τὸ δὲ ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ (as'-bes-tos = inextinguishable, unquenchable – Strongs NT 762 - http://biblehub.com/greek/762.htm)
Example 2: “And he will pay back to each one according to his works: everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; however, for those who are contentious and who disobey the truth but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and anger. There will be tribulation and distress on every person who works what is harmful, on the Jew first and also on the Greek; but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (NWT 2013, Romans 2:6-10)
If you are heatresistable :-) you may read Jesus words:Matt. 5:21-22,Matt. 10:28,see also Luke 12:5 , Matt. 23:15, Matt. 23:29-
So much for today, now let me dring my hot coffee. :-)In my next attempt i would like to write about,
II. Is there punishment after death (catolic) or is death the punishment (JW)
if you like at all.
Greetings TWOY
it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.
"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.
"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".
Two addtional links for theologians here:
1) This links is a catolic information side mentioning even Jehovahs witnesses in the beginnin:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is
Overview and important Pope says
In his 1994 book, “Crossing the Threshold of Hope”, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).
Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).]]
This book is in my bookshelf and I find it very interesting. I found it in a church for free.
2) this is a link to the online catolic catechism in the vatican library:
about the classical traditional school theology, the classic dogma about
1) particular judgment
2) heaven'
3) final purification
4) hell
5) last judgment
6) hte hope of a new heaven and a new earth
7) in brief and
8)Amen
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.
"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.
"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".
Dear LisaRose
1) you wrote: Really? An eternity of pain?
The dogmas of the church are only approximations too, the theologians and historians have to explain who the pain came into the hell.
The church can only follow Jesus Christ and what we have received in the scriptures. The modern teachers say that Jesus words are merely warnings of the consequences of loosing gods friendship, loosing gods mercy and love, by choise and free will, to constantly black-hearted denial of gods loving hands, by choosing deliberatly a way of wilfully sinning maybe.
Reading the bible we often meet Jesus saysings and phrases or figure of speeches in parabels that indicate severe consequences of going the broad way. I remember at the moment the words "the broad way into destruction" or "eternal fire" or "gehenna" or "jugement day" or "eternal judgment", "baest and goasts" and even the "poor lazarus and the rich man" and "certainly Armageddon too.
All these phrases are only giving emphazise to the subject of seriousness , but there is not a literal fire or a literal punishment or any pain in Jesus words (i read about his matter in abook of Pope Benedikt)
Jesus used evidently the common phrases and that were used by the normal people in Judea at that time and not aloofed words or complicated theology.
He spoke this sayings mostly to uneducated people. So all the saysing of judgment day an so on where already common known in the Jewish community.
There were the apocalytic sects, Essens..., and reform movements, something like the great awakeing in the 19th centeruy in america, perhaps jesus even had contact with Essens, and John the baptist was a pupil of them, because many words in the new testament have been found in the sciriputers of the essens. Why i am saying this? Because the sayings of the apocalyptic sects where well known like the preaching work of Jehovas witnesses today John said "repent and get batized in the jordan": Maybe Jesus even put up and overtook most of Essens sayings, and so it came into the Bible too. The saysing have it source in a completety other religious and social and educational background as today.
2. You wrote: yet some believe that God will do this for eternity, because a person was born in the wrong country, so worshipped another God, or chose the wrong flavor of Christianity or simply didn't find the evidence for God compelling or believable.
I am preparing an answer.
Greetings
it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.
"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.
"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".
TWOY i will study your wise informations, give me time , english is not my mother language and
it is not so easy at all to speak about this matter in general.
it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.
"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.
"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".
Sorry:
For me, only since my contact with JW the matter of hell became an issue. As you know anyway the majority of catolics and protestants in our country, the dogma of the hell is not picked up as central theme, nor taught in any religious education at school. Furthermore before teenis get confirmed with 14, they attend a confirmation class and get the catolic catechism for young people “YOUCAT”,published 2011 as a gift ( http://www.youcat.org/youcat/what-is-youcat/the-most-important/) and then children may read the book for themself. But there is no duty anymore to learn the answers by heart. So my child is 14 now and I am educating her catolic, I asked her she never heard the word “hell” before. The catolic education is not in all countries the same i think. There are countries which are more conservative. So people here do not think about hell-stuff at all their whole life. So the whole matter has become an issue for theologians and those who want to go deeper into the issue only. (JW use it for propaganda against the church).
In the YOUCAT you find question 161 (translated by me):What is the hell? The short answer:
Hell is the state of eternal separateness of God, the absolute absence of love.
it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.
"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.
"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".
For me, only since my contact with JW the matter of hell became an issue. As you know anyway the majority of catolics and protestants in our country, the dogma of the hell is not picked up as central they attend a confirmation class and get the catolic catechism for young people “YOUCAT”,published 2011 as a gift ( http://www.youcat.org/youcat/what-is-youcat/the-most-important/) and then children may retheme, nor taught in any religious education at school. Furthermore before teenis get confirmed with 14, ad the book for themself. But there is no duty anymore to learn the answers by heart. So my child is 14 now and I am educating her catolic, I asked her she never heard the word “hell” before. The catolic education is not in all countries the same i think. There are countries which are more conservative. So people here do not think about hell-stuff at all their whole life. So the whole matter has become an issue for theologians and those who want to go deeper into the issue only. (JW use it for propaganda against the churches).
In the YOUCAT you find question 161 (translated by me):What is the hell? The short answer:
Hell is the state of eternal separateness of God, the absolute absence of love.
it's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.
"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.
"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".
I actually believe in "The hell" and "the eternal fire", not solely because it sounds better then the "Armageddon" and not because even the New Word Translation uses the word "eternal fire" in the Gospels and the whole christian scriptures, but because Lord Jesus said it:
Matthew 18:8 (NWT 2013 Rev.): If, then, your hand or your foot makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you.+It is better for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire.
Matthew 25:41: “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me,+ you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire+ prepared for the Devil and his angels. (NWT 2013 Rev.)
Jude 7 (NWT 2013) " In the same manner, Sod′om and Go·mor′rah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality* and pursued unnatural fleshly desires;+ they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.
Later more....
when will the armageddong teaching (a heresy) again replaced by the good old hell fire?
It has been the original christian teaching since Jesus Christ,
It is part of my catolic creed.
I believe in it.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
even when i was dyed-in-the-wool j-dub, i felt the armageddon teaching was one of the most morbid concepts to be hammered into the psyches of jws.
think about it, only jws would survive this catastrophe, which translates to roughly .001 percent of the population would survive while everyone else would die a horrible death.
that includes people who do good things and are good people, but are just not jws.
I always tried to beautify the horrible bad news of Gods Armageddon when I was yet a silent lamb. I began to think really "indepently":
"Should not Christians overemphazise developping a communion with God without Armageddon fear?"
A year ago I met a witness mother (she speaks always with me, because I know her since age 13) : she tries to avoid the study articles
about armageddon because her daughters are very afraid of that matter. Sadly.
No matter how cruel the texting of the Watchtower study articles might by or how horrible the WT Cover might be
our mind has been manipulated to construct always sophisticated answers or excuses for all bad and unchristian=unmerciful Armageddon stuff
"But somehow People have to be awakened, Wonderofyou, wouldn't you agree?"
The latest invention is the argument that Armageddon is not a war of men but by God (as this would be better).
But does the end justifies the means really, you sheperds?
here are a couple suggestions for slogans:.
missionary positions available".. 2.
where jesus isn't the only one coming for a second time".. .. add yours to the list.
Or JW.org+
