PioneerSchmioneer

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Posts by PioneerSchmioneer

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  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  Dear scholar JW,

  This is what he claims (among other things) does not exist in order for his arguments to work:

  

  It is called the Alexamenos Graffito, and it hangs in the Palatine Museum in Rome. It is from the late 1st or early 2nd century. Etched on a slab, it was made by Romans making fun of a Christian. It states, in Greek:

  "Alexamenos worships [his] God."

  It is, of course, the etching of a man, worshiping a crucified person, with the crucified person being insulted by given the head of a donkey.

  The cross is, of course, the shape of the type testified to by Josephus, Lucias, and secular writers were are also asked in this work to ignore (I am sure you remember because you write as though you have read this work).

  Such an act has a name, to "suspend belief," and means to ignore facts or the truth in order to momentarily believe in something, like a work of fiction or a fairy tale.

  So say and believe what you want. I am not bothered one bit by your views. Your views are not facts, nor do they change realities.
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  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  And before somebody asks...

  It is an old thesis that went nowhere but I remember a few examples. It was philosophical because he asks the reader to first suspend belief that:

  • The Alaxemenos Graffito never exited
  • That Josephus never originally wrote about crucifixion in Aramaic (which we know he did, especially "The Jewish Wars")
  • The Romans never improved upon the Greek pale with inventing the cross
  • Archeological evidence demonstrating nailings to crosses by the Romans exists
• 
  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

  1. 
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  3. 
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  PioneerSchmioneer

  I actually studied Samuelsson's thesis and sat in on what turned out to be an overblown reaction to his work that ended up being AP getting "egg on their face," so to speak.

  The work is a philosophical work not an etymological one (based on the science of language). It is not a critical theory nor does he claim it to be. He does suggest that religion and iconography more than language has more to do with what people know about the crucifixion, and this has shaped what people know about what the gospels say about the event.

  Unfortunately, the media claimed that his thesis stated that he wrote that Jesus was 'never nailed to the cross,' which is something he never claimed.

  There is a huge difference between a philosophical work and a critical theory about etymology. Gunnar's work is philosophy, not about language.
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  543

  Encouraging scriptures for the day

  by Kosonen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello my friends,.

  here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

  revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  Kosonen,

  With the aid from my friend who is a rabbi, and I quote:

  "The problem is merely an ancient one due to the loss of the Temple. In ancient times the celebration did indeed begin on Nisan 14th in the afternoon with the slaughter of thousands of sheep and home preparation of meals. But the evening meal, the seder, that started that night, was the beginning of the 15th, and always the start of the Festival of Unleavened Bread. And that day that started at sundown was always a Sabbath. You could not do any work, any lighting of fires, any cooking, even the slaughtering of the lamb had to be done before that moment. With the Temple gone, Jews today merely observe the Passover seder which begins on the 15th, and it is always considered a Sabbath."

  He mentioned the verses in Exodus that you pointed out are often used by Fundamentalists Christians to try to teach Jews that they have the "wrong day," which in reality the Temple is just gone and there is no slaughtering of lambs happening on the 14th.

  As Exodus 12:18 says, "in the evening" of the 14th, they would begin the "Festival of Unleavened Bread," because at sundown the 15th of Nisan began and Jewish days begin at sundown.

  As I mentioned in my previous post, in John's gospel, the author has Jesus die on Nisan 14, the same day the Jews are slaughtering the lambs. The rabbi said this was correct because the Jews would not be outside demanding the death of a criminal on a Sabbath or Passover or any Jewish holy day. The gospel mentions the Jews demanded the rush of the affixiation process of the criminals on the crosses by having their legs broken because the next day was the Passover--and a "great Sabbath," meaning the next day was going to be Saturday, the regular Sabbath and Passover, which is always considered a Sabbath, no matter what day of the week it lands on.--John 19:31.

  In other words, stating that Jesus died on "Preparation Day" in the Gospel of John and not on Passover unlike in the Synoptic Gospels shows that the Jews didn't eat the Passover on Nisan 14.

  Josephus, who you yourself quoted, described Nisan 14, Preparation Day, in fact the very last one before the Temple fell in 70 CE, and stated that "from the ninth hour to the eleventh" (from 3 pm to 5 pm) 256,500 lambs were slaughtered in the Temple for the Passover meal.--War of the Jews, VI.9.3.

  That would not be possible on a Sabbath because people could not prepare a meal on Passover because you cannot light a fire to prepare a meal on a Sabbath, which the first day of Passover always is. (Ex 35:3) Passover, as my rabbi friend says, has to be on the 15th.

  That's where the confusion lies.

  Again, John's gospel merely moved Jesus' death to Nisan 14 as a narrative teaching device as the synoptic gospels and the Church Fathers agree that Jesus died on Nisan 15, Passover, and that that particular Passover on which he died was on a Friday, not a Saturday.
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  543

  Encouraging scriptures for the day

  by Kosonen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello my friends,.

  here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

  revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  Good points, peacefulpete.

  Kosonen wrote:

  The Israelites celebrated their first Passover the 14th day of the first month and left the same day.

  This is a common mistake Christians make due to thinking that Passover begins with "eating." It doesn't. It begins with a sacrifice--or at least it used to. (I got this from my brother who converted to conservative Judaism and from one of my closest friends who is a rabbi.)

  The date on the Jewish calendar for Passover is Nisan 14 at sundown, that part is correct. But what starts at Nisan 14 is not eating, but this:

  You shall keep [the lamb] until the fourteenth day of this month; then the whole assembled congregation of Israel shall slaughter it at twilight.

  Passover begins with the act of the slaughter of the lamb, "at twilight," a sacrifice--which only later turns into a meal: a communion with God. But since the slaughtering must be done first by the fall of night, it is the 15th when the next festival day begins, the Festival of Unleavened Bread (otherwise there is no bread to eat with the meal...and no meal to eat, period.)

  Deuteronomy 1:6 explains:

  You will make the Passover sacrifice in the evening, when the sun goes down, at the time when you went forth out of Egypt.

  Jewish days go from evening to evening. Thus it was during the daytime, on the 14th, when lambs were gathered and collected, sundown (twilight) when they were slaughered, and thus the 15th when the Passover seder began.

  This is why today Jews celebrate their Passover meals on the 15th, not on the 14th. One did not have a meal to eat or celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread until the 15th. The Jews could not have had enough time to gather all those lambs together on the 14th, slaughter them all at "sundown" or "twilight" of the 14th, and have a meal going...which would be the next day on the Jewish calendar, the 15th.

  In John's gospel, the author has Jesus die the "day before Passover" on "Preparation day" instead of Passover as in the other accounts. (John 19:14) Why? A narrative device to teach a point.

  In John's gospel Jesus is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."--John 1:29, 36

  Preparation Day is Nisan 14, the day Jews were gathering lambs to slaughter them for the passover communion meal or seder. In the gospel of John, Jesus is "the Lamb of God," who is slaughtered on Nisan 14 on the eve before Passover, whose "blood" literally gets spilled on wood and bones not crushed, like the Passover lamb of ancient times.--Note the details of John 19:31-37.

  Scholars and the Church Fathers agree that the rabbinical figure Jesus of Nazareth died on the 15th on Passover. The author of John was merely using a series of religious motifs to instruct.
• 
  543

  Encouraging scriptures for the day

  by Kosonen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello my friends,.

  here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

  revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  I stand corrected by someone. The Jewish Study Bible, published by JPS, does use the new R and D model for the development of the Five Books of Moses instead of the old JPED hypothesis.

  So it is finally being released to the public.
• 
  543

  Encouraging scriptures for the day

  by Kosonen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello my friends,.

  here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

  revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  A footnote to my last post:

  The lastest theories of the Old Testament source materials now do away with "document" recreations and redraw the creation of the Hebrew text as N and S or I and J, meaning a composition of writings that weave oral stories from the northern kingdom/Israel and the sourthern kingdom/Judah into what we have today, instead of the varied JPED sources hypothesized by German Protestants from the 1800s. (R and D is actually from the 1990s.)

  And I meant to write "Q source" not "Q theory," indicating that over the past 30 + years, scholars have grown to abandon the Q source theory, reflected in the latest NRSVue study edition from HarperOne that I mentioned.
• 
  543

  Encouraging scriptures for the day

  by Kosonen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello my friends,.

  here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

  revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  Thanks Peacefulpete. Good info.

  The J, E, P, D has largely been replaced by R and D these days with almost no layperson materials yet updated with this, even though this is now the norm for about 30 years or so in modern documentary studies.

  What happened was after the Qumran scrolls were discovered, it became clear that there was clearly a redactor, but since the Masoretic theories were far more correct than the Christian methodologies that created the Document Hypothesis it was revised using Jewish critical studies (which were largely ignored).

  While the new hypothesis recognized the "possibility" of J, E, and P, it notes that it is more likely that a school of redaction influenced by the Babylonian exile created everything outside of D. So everything is now divided into simply R and D, with R being made up of possibly many sources, but in the end under a central type of redactor of some sort, likely a school of scribes working over a generation, possibly under a great scholar or Jewish prophet.

  The latest edition of the NRSV Updated Edition SBL Study Edition from HarperOne is the first new layperson book I've seen with anything close to some of this new data from the past few decades--except it only touches on the New Testament. It published (finally) that scholars no longer hold to the Q theory. It will take another 10 years before the last 30 years of scholary work finally trickles down to study Bibles (and who knows how long before it hits Wikipedia).
• 
  543

  Encouraging scriptures for the day

  by Kosonen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello my friends,.

  here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

  revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  The northern branches of the Red Sea are reed marshes, and "migdal" is the word for a generic Egyptian fortress, not a city.

  If this was historic, there were various ancient "migdals" throught the north where "reed seas" once existed. These could dry up overnight and flood in an instant due to regular weather and seismic activity.
• 
  543

  Encouraging scriptures for the day

  by Kosonen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello my friends,.

  here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

  revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  The traditional rendering of "Red Sea" for where the Israelites crossed is not found in the Hebrew text. That wording is found only in the Greek Septuagint.

  In Hebrew manuscripts the body of water that the Jews cross is called yam suph, which means "Sea of Reeds" or the "Reed Sea" which is how the Jewish Publication's NJPS translation renders it and the Interdenominational CEB (Common English Bible) translates it, and the footnote in the new NRSVue explains it.

  Yam is Hebrew for "sea" and suph means "reeds." Suph is rendered as "reeds" (not "red") in Bibles, for example in the New World Translation at Exodus 2:3:

  She...put the child in it and placed it among the reeds by the bank of the Nile River.--NWT, Italics added.

  The identity of this body of water is therefore uncertain. If the story is describing something historical, it might be suggesting an event near the inlet of Lake Mazala in northeastern Egypt, or the Gulf of Suez, or perhpas the Gulf of Aqaba, or perhaps even Lakes El-Ballah, Lake Timsah or the Bitter Lakes.

  But it would have to be an area full of reeds and not the Red Sea as we know it today.

  The apostle Paul, Jewish sages, and moden scholars suggest that the value of the narrative lies in its allegorical truths, as did St. Basil in his writing On the Holy Spirit.