Posts by PioneerSchmioneer

73

Did God know adam and eve would sin?

by gavindlt in

to all those on this forum, i would love to know what your take on this vital question is..

PioneerSchmioneer

I believe some of you may be reading into the Adam & Eve account something that was not there when the original author(s) composed it.

Remember, it was not written by Christians with the book of Revelation or any of the New Testament and any Christian theology in mind.

This means there was no concept of "Satan the Devil" when reading the narrative of Adam & Eve story. The serpent is not "Satan" any more than the talking donkey in Numbers chapter 22 is "Satan." In the Torah, a talking animal is a Hebrewism, a Jewish narrative device to indicate that a character is having a "crisis of consicence." It is very primative but it explains while neither Eve nor Balaam act as if it is anything out of the ordinary to encounter an animal speaking and then actually engage the animal in converstation as they would anyone else. It isn't meant to indicate demonic possession but a warning to the character due to their being at a decisive crossroads.

The Jews did not at the time of the writing of the Torah and to this day believe in Satan the Devil. So to claim that "God would know that Adam and Eve would sin" could possibly mean:

The story of Adam and Eve is indeed about sinning which would lead many to argue
That the narrative would not be fully comprehended until Augustine of Hippo (354-430 CE) first defined the story as "original sin"--something Judaism does not, and that
Opens a can of worms, that if God knew that Adam & Eve would "sin," this means that this was indeed "Original Sin" as defined by the Catholic Church, implying the God does indeed use that body--and that would be problematic for many.

The problem merely continues if one insists along this line of thought since it was the Roman Church that validated the doctrine which therefore insisted on the baptism of infants because of this view. Unless one breaks away from this understanding, as many have, one is left to choose sides, either with Catholicism or the view that the narrative was metaphorical:

The doctrine has long been the prerequisite for the Christian understanding of the meaning of Jesus’ Crucifixion and atonement and was especially promulgated by St. Augustine in the West. Despite its importance for understanding Jesus’ sacrifice, and as a motivation behind the practice of infant baptism in some churches, the doctrine of original sin has been minimized since the European Enlightenment. Indeed, the idea that salvation is necessary because of the universal stain of original sin is no longer accepted by a number of Christian sects and interpretations, especially among those Christians who consider the story of Adam and Eve to be less a fact and more a metaphor of the relation of God and humanity.--Original Sin: Britannica.com

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
--Philippians 2:12

St. Augustine wrote on the above text in Philippians explaining that 'if you really understood that God was the one working in you to produce your good works and that everything was therefore a grace, you would really tremble with fear.'--On Grace and Free Will, 21.

While he wasn't suggesting literal fear but instead awe of the salvation process, it did tie in with the verse at Luke 11:13b:

How much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!

Since the grace of salvation is only made possible by the life the Holy Spirit supplies working in each Christian to make them a "son" or child of God, it truly is an awe-inspiring concept.--Galatians 4:6.

____

Scripture quotations are taken from the RSV: Revised Standard Version Bible, Ignatius Edition, Copyright © 1965, 1966, 2006, Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

God is my witness that I tell the truth when I say that my deep feeling for you all comes from the heart of Christ Jesus himself. I pray that your love will keep on growing more and more, together with true knowledge and perfect judgment, so that you will be able to choose what is best. Then you will be free from all impurity and blame on the Day of Christ. Your lives will be filled with the truly good qualities which only Jesus Christ can produce, for the glory and praise of God.
–Philippians 1:8–11, GNT.

Paul’s letter to the Philippians began with a prayer, reminding those that he was serving that his ministry came from the love of Christ, a love he hoped would be found in them as well.

This was not some sentimentality or mere tender affection, but the type of self-sacrificing love that moved people to serve others. Because “the Day of Christ,” the Second Coming, should always be on the mind of a Christian, Paul knew it was important for them to know how “to choose what is best”as they lived their lives, “filled with the truly good qualities” that come from relying on the gospel of Jesus.

_______

2

Another Messiah in the News

by peacefulpete in

a news item making rounds today regards the famous chabad-lubavitch synagogue in brooklyn.

in short, the leader of the movement/sect was world famous rabbi menachem mendel schneerson.

schneerson passed away in 1994.....or did he?

PioneerSchmioneer

Actually, if memory serves, the whole Chabad movement believed or at least hoped he was the messiah, though the rabbi oft repeated no, at least when directly asked.

There were even many posters and signs plastered throughout the Orthodox neighborhoods claiming Schneerson was the messiah and where his upcoming speaking engagements would be held during the late 1980s and early '90s, which the rabbi did nothing to discourage.

Many of his followers believed he would never die, so when he did and there was a funeral, many who believed him to be the messiah could not accept his death.

Others went "full Jesus" on Chabad and began teaching he would rise in three days or had risen and was in hiding. But Chabad formally squashed all such teachings and the view that the messiah had come--or so they claimed.

The work of Chabad has been to build a bridge between Orthodox Judaism and modern Jewish life, but this latest event will unravel all the good done to show that leadership has not really cared to quiet this messianic movement in its ranks.

Chabad is the group that creates those large public Hanukkah menorahs throughout the USA. Someone has to sponsor them. It's not your mainstream synagogue, it's those folks... And they do it to try to make new members, something which is very "un-Jewish." So don't get too close or you might get handed some Chabad literature next holiday season.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Kosonen:

Why would you mention Hilter and the teaching of Papal infallibility together in the same post? I don't see the connection?

You are aware, for example, not everything a pope says or teaches is considered infallible and that in there have only been two such instances where there have been "ex cathedra" or "infallible" statements. They are made when the Catholic Church as a whole, all the people, from the least to the greatest, agree that a regular view or doctrine is to be viewed as an unchageable dogma.

Then a pope, speaking on behalf of the Catholic Church, makes the declaration "from the chair" (in Latin "ex cathedra") of his authority that "such and such" is the desire of the church, and therefore such a doctrine becomes dogma on behalf of the Church.

It happened in 1854 and then again in 1950, but only after years of much discussion with many Catholics and bishops over the matter at hand before the decision. It does not mean that a pope is infallible, but that the action of the Church at that moment via a pope is, that is, the entire Church in making a doctrine into dogma infallible.

Why make a connection between this and Hitler?

41

God cannot lie

by psyco in

the bible does not say that god does not want to lie, but that he cannot lie or it is impossible for god to lie.

.

so, if god cannot lie, for what purpose and why did he create creatures (satan, demons, humans) who can lie?.

PioneerSchmioneer

Peacefulpete has a point.

The Jews were not writing My Book of Bible Stories here in Genesis. This was the Torah, the Mosaic Law. Any narrative was there for the purpose of teaching the Jews the Law, not history.

This is not a collection of creation bedtime stories for Christians here, but three separate creation narratives that teach something about the Mosaic Law:

Genesis chapter 1, the First Creation Myth, teaches Jews to observe the Sabbath.

Gensis chapter 2, the Second Creation Myth, was actual the first composed and comes from folklore and from the time of the Levant and Babylon, to describe the creation of man and woman (from the Hebrew folklore) and having them assigned as caretakers of a Babyloning garden (Babylonian myth).

Genesis chapter 3, the Exile/Moses Foreshadowing, is known in Christianity as the Fall, where Adam & Eve are actually the nation of Israel that get expelled from caretakers of the Promised Land for breaking the law of God (stealing is one of the Ten Commandments/stealing from one of the trees in the king of Babylon's garden would get you expelled). Adam & Eve find themselves "east of Eden" which foreshadows the end of the Torah where Moses in Deuteronomy is "east of the Jordan," the same place the Jews are when writing these stories, "east of the Promised Land."

Talking animals in the Torah are simple Hebrewism narrative devices that indicate that the main subject is sinning in their action (for example, Balaam's donkey in Numbers 22). Both Eve and Balaam act as if animals always talk in both instances instead of acting surprised. This is because it is a narrative device. The animal isn't really talking. It is likely that the author is suggesting that a "crisis of conscience" is occuring.

Finally, note that the creation myths are put in a certain order, where man and woman are made in "God image," but in the final story, Adam and Eve in shame and guilt cover themselves and in the expulsion from Eden leave with themselves "covered," unlike the animals in Eden. This is also part of the narrative. It represents that Adam and Eve fail to be in the "image of God" when they fail to follow the Torah by "stealing" from the tree. Breaking God's law, sin, the Jews reasoned, made one fail to live up to that image. That is why at the end of the Torah, Moses does not enter the Promised Land--he failed as well by his actions.

These are but narratives, of course, but they teach lessons to the Jews on how to live up to the Law. They are not necessarily historic.

41

God cannot lie

by psyco in

the bible does not say that god does not want to lie, but that he cannot lie or it is impossible for god to lie.

.

so, if god cannot lie, for what purpose and why did he create creatures (satan, demons, humans) who can lie?.

PioneerSchmioneer

I do not see the connection between the OP and Adam and Eve. But whatever it is, I don't believe people need to follow the Bible or some religion after leaving the Watchtower to find answers. But since that is what we are talking about...

The original question was based on the Watchtower conundrum caused by the Biblical texts of Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, and Hebrews 6:18 in light of the narrative where God sends a “lying spirit” into the mouth of prophets found at 1 Kings 22:21-23 and 2 Chronicles 18:21-23.

Fundamentalist Christians also face this same problem due to their literal interpretation of Scripture. I think this is quite a bother for quite a few people who want all things to fit in a nice perfect package, and they try to make everything work together with creative but often failed reasoning instead of looking at narratives for what they are.

However, even with a literalist view of the Fall of Man, very few if any pick on the phrase found at Genesis 2:17, BEYOWIM, which often gets translated as “on the day” in formal equivalence Bible translations, but in Hebrew actually means “then/when/at that time” and appears over 2300 times in the Hebrew text, and many times it never even means “day” at all: Ge 30:33; Le 14:57; Nu 6:13; 1 Sa 18:10; 1 Ch 12:23, etc.

Some formal equivalence translations do not render the word “day” in the instance at Genesis 2:17:

From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.--NABRE.

But if you use the word “day,” it means the same thing as when a parent tells a child: “You will rue the day you ever did that!” It is an old form of English, and it doesn’t mean that something will happen on a certain day. To “rue the day” is a phrase Shakespeare made famous that means “to regret.” The way the King James Version rendered Genesis 2:17 trickled down to many other Bibles, and the phrase became a standard in English--until recently due to its misunderstanding.

To sound like an old broken record with a previous post:

Maimonides, the great Jewish philosopher of the Middle Ages, essentially taught that there was no difference between creating an image out of wood or stone and worshiping that or creating one out of words and calling that your god. Either way, you are still making an idol, he explained, visible or out of words, shaping it to look and act like a human, and calling it God--even though it was in your image and acting like a man or woman: lying, being jealous, angry, etc. That, Maimonides taught, is not God. That is an idol, even if it just made out of words found from the Scriptures.

The stories written by ancient Bible writers, though very pious and faithful, were limited due to their culture and even (as the prophets would condemn them for) their worship practices, to think of their own Deity under the limits of Levant religions which thought of gods as human monarchs, sitting on thrones, acting like kings, controlling the earth from on high. Those concepts, Maimonides argued, were inventions of humans. If there was a God he proposed, then such descriptions could not be used to properly fit the Deity.

Stories about God sitting on a throne and arguing with humans and getting mad and angry and having a head and arms and having any kind of attribute a human would have, including lying, is anthropomorphic. That is one way we know a Biblical story is either mythological, folklore or legend.

Mainstream religion answered this question in the Middle Ages--that's a long time ago. The Jehovah's Witnesses came from the Second Great Awakening where they rejected teachings from higher learning, history, the Jewish sages, and even the Church Fathers. If it wasn't written between the pages of a King James Bible, it wasn't truth.

It was a sad way to look at the world, with Millerites sitting on top of roofs after having given away all their earthly belongings waiting for Jesus to return--something we would see repeat itself again and again in certain ways among the JWs with their failed prophecies too.

It's not so much the Bible itself that is the problem. It's a group of people who can't get out of a cave of lesser learning and apparently won't do it.

14

Did Jesus have a pre-existence or was he fully human, begotten at his human birth.

by gavindlt in

so when was jesus begotten.

was he truly and wholly fully human.

did he exist in two states, part human part god.

PioneerSchmioneer

The expressions "begotten" and "Son" were borrowed Hebrewisms from the Patriarchs and Davidic dynasty psalms, such as Psalm 2, where God tells David (and each member of his house) that anyone who would sit on his throne in that dynasty would become a "son" or an "incarnation" of God to the people of Israel. This type of terminology was used by other cultures such as the Greek and Roman rulers who would in later centuries call themselves "son of god," or "begotten" of a deity, not meaning they were a child but an incarnation of their own heathen and pagan gods on earth. The New Testament writers of the gospel used these expressions as they struggled to explain finding God in Jesus since they were Jews who at the same time believed in the unbreakable centrality of the Shema. Thus they referred to Jesus as God in those terms--an "incarnation"--using those particular Hebrewisms since Judaism didn't have the word "incarnation" as it was Latin and they were as of yet unfamiliar with the tongue and the Pagan religion from which it originated.

As to the make up of the states, that is more of a religious question belonging to denominational makeup and division. Most in Christianity believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine, but since God is Ineffable, how this works is thus beyond comprehension in most of these religious theologies.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Scripture text at Genesis 1:26-27 wherein one finds the words "let us make" is not just about Jesus but has long been held by all branches of mainstream Christianity as pointing to the likely involvement of each person of the Trinity, including the Holy Spirit and the Father, in creation.--CCC 307, 1942, 2402.

As to the "antichrist," this is generally understood in Scripture and theology as a psuedo-messianic figure or deception, usually one that is expected to appear before the eschatological conclusion to history.

73

Did God know adam and eve would sin?

by gavindlt in

to all those on this forum, i would love to know what your take on this vital question is..

PioneerSchmioneer

It doesn't follow that there was a literal or history play of Adam and Eve "sin and thus fall from perfection" as Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

Judaism and Catholicism/Eastern Orthodox Christianity, as well as mainstream Protestantism teach that this narrative is, in the words of The Didache Bible:

"Not scientific or historical but rather a kind of prologue that uses literary image and symbolic language to express fundamental truth,"--Introduction to The First Book of Moses Commonly Called Genesis: Main Themes--The Didache Bible, Midwest Theological Forum, Ignatius Press, 2014

Not much in the Torah is narrative independent of some legal precedent. Non-Jewish readers often forget when reading Genesis through Deuteronomony that this is one book, not a library of books or independent stories. It is a book of laws. Any "story" that has found its way in (whether myth or legend or folklore) teaches or demonstrates a Jewish law in one way or another. To demonstrate, the most well-known tale about Abraham's life among Jews entitled "Abraham and the Idol Shop" does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures but in the Talmud.* It is well-preserved folklore, but it does not teach any Jewish law, such as the Binding of Isaac (known in Hebrew as "Akedah") found at Genesis 22. So you don't find that story, though the most famous in Jewry about Abraham, in the Bible.

While Judaism and mainstream Christianity understand some sort of "fall from grace" is allegorically demonstrated in this narrative, it cannot be broken down into any type of historical timeline or explained what the imagery stood for. God, not being subject to time in mainstream religious theology and being Ineffable, is not subject to anthropomorphic concepts like comprehension or existing in time (therefore God "knowing something ahead of time" is only something a primitive idol deity would do--Jehovah's Witnesses being stuck of thinking of their "Jehovah" in antropomorphic or human-like terms.

*--For more details on the actual story, see here.

41

God cannot lie

by psyco in

the bible does not say that god does not want to lie, but that he cannot lie or it is impossible for god to lie.

.

so, if god cannot lie, for what purpose and why did he create creatures (satan, demons, humans) who can lie?.

PioneerSchmioneer

This is typical of "black and white thinking" that comes from cults, and it causes many of us to make all or nothing decisions even after we leave the Watchtower, showing that sometimes we cannot entirely stop the habit due to the hold that this type of reasoning has on us (i.e., "Since salt is totally bad then I will give using all forms of spices and never use any again," so to speak).

Theologically speaking, the understanding of a "lie" in Watchtower doctrine is very different when compared to mainstream religion. So one will come to very mistaken conclusions if they do not do things like study what Maimonides, Aquinas, and Augustine have to say on this matter.

In brief, it is only the New Testament that is talking about God not lying when compared to Satan the Devil (an entity which does not actually exist in Judaism, per se). And the type of lying the New Testament is talking about (the Old Testament actually has God telling lies, by the way) is not deception itself but making a statement that is injuious. This is why one needs to study the Church Fathers, the very ones responsible for preserving the writings of the apostles up until the time of the closing of the New Testament canon.

Note that at 1 Kings 22:19-23, God literally deceives Ahab with the help of righteous angels. That goes against the Watchtower concept of good and evil. Only Satan can lie, right?

There is a difference between malice and justice (and the above Old Testament story that explains in simple human terms a tale where God controls earthly matters--which is where Maimonides comes in and explains that due to God really not being an anthropomorphic entity, this could not have occurred in the terms we read).

That is an important point that we miss from our education as JWs, that God is not like God's creation that has an actual need for imitating anything we are or do in human terms (which includes lying). JWs still believe that God is an antrhopomorphic entity, but Judaism and Christianity does not. They believe that God is Ineffable and that the Scriptures use language that is reflective of the Bronze Age when even the Bible writers spoke of God like their idolatrous neighbors, as if God were an idol god: with a head, eyes, arms, hands, and even human attributes, feelings, and the abilities we have, like tell the truth and lie. God is not a human and is actually above all that.

JWs are not allowed to study what the great religious thinkers have taught (because it will expose the false doctrines of the cult). So this is why many have may have some of these questions. These are generally considered "boring" subjects covered in childrens' Catholic catechism and Jewish Hebrew school lessons that for the most part go over many young people's heads or if they do manage to keep their eyes open, they are likely to shelve the ideas way back into their heads where the cobwebs grow.

Some of this might be very hard to grasp if we have not moved past the need to see things in the "black and white" model and demand that things must either be this way or not. Watchtower theology implodes in on itself because it limits itself to the Bible, something neither Judaism nor Christianity does. (Even Fundamentalism doesn't, though it claims to--which I am not touching here.) Watchtower is a cult, and cult thinking comes up with very weird ideas.

Stop and think: Nobody in Judaism or mainstream Christianity has gone mad thinking about this issue, have they? Apparently it's because it is not an issue. It's a Watchtower cult thing. Can God lie? God is not an entity. Haven't you studied Maimonides before your confirmation or your bar/bat mitzvah? You didn't have either? Where did you grow up? In a cult?