Posts by PioneerSchmioneer

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Kosonen:

Do you truly follow your own encouragement and teachings? Is it good to promote anything that talks about Jesus?

According to many Christians, there are several books in the Old Testament canon which are supposed to be there but the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not accept as inspired. Some of these books, like the Wisdom of Solomon and Sirach actually have prophecies foretelling the arrival of the Messiah.

The Wisdom of Solomon has a very detailed prophecy about how the Messiah will be rejected by his own people and what type of reasoning they will use to do it, and the Sirach has a prophecy spoken of in the gospels that says that Elijah will return before the day of judgement, giving us insight as to why the disciples of Jesus ask at Mt 17:10 & Mk 9:11: “Why do the scribes [plural] say that Elijah must come first?” instead of saying: "Why does Malachi say...?" The other "scribe" they are referencing is obviously Sirach, which has been preserved in the Septuagint to this day.

They were accepted by the Church Fathers and are still accepted by the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Episcopal Churches (as well as some Protestant groups outside of Fundamentalism).

The texts are as follows:

The Messianic Rejection Prophecy

“Let us lie in wait for the righteous man,/because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions;/he reproaches us for sins against the law/and accuses us of sins against our training,/He professes to have knowledge of God/and calls himself a child of the Lord./He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;/the very sight of him is a burden to us,.because his manner of life is unlike that of others/and his ways are strange./We are considered by him as something base,/and he avoids our ways as unclean;/ he calls the last end of the righteous happy/and boasts that God is his father./Let us see of his words are true,/and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;/ for is the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him/and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries./Let us test him with insult and torture,/that we may find out how gentle he is/and make trial of his forebarance./Let us condemn him to shameful death/for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”

--The Wisdom of Solomon 2:12-20, ESV Catholic Edition

Elijah to Return Before the Day of Judgement

Then the prophet Elijah arose like a fire,/ and his word burned like a torch…
You who were taken up by a whirlwind of fire/in a chariot with horses of fire;/ you who are ready at the appointed time, it is written,/to calm the wrath of God before it breaks out in furry,/ to turn the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob. Blessed are those who saw you/ and those who have been fallen asleep in love;/ for we also shall surely live.

--Wisdom of Sirach 48:1, 9-11, ESV Catholic Edition

Again, the text from Sirach is so very important to Christianity as it fills us in on who Jesus’ apostles were talking about when they use the term “scribes” in the plural, referencing those who foretell the coming of Elijah before the Messiah. It also confirms the idea of life coming to people at the time of his return.

Of interest is that this book is rejected by those who produced the New World Translation.

Even more shocking is the details found in the Messianic Rejection prophecy in the Wisdom of Solomon. Composed no later than 100 BCE, the text description of “righteous man” who “professes to have knowledge of God,” who “calls himself a child of the Lord,” and is disliked for reproving this group that claims he “boasts that God is his father,” ends up being persecuted, violently tortured merely because he is a ‘righteous man” who “is God’s son.” The descriptions are hard not to connect with the Passion accounts found in all four gospels.

Again this book which is found in most major mainstream Bible versions such as the NRSV and ESV, but is also rejected by the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

So, Kosonen, what do you say? Shouldn’t we embrace these books as inspired since they clearly talk about Jesus and carry signs of inspiration and were accepted by the earliest Christians. Why aren’t you accepting them and using Bible translations with a fuller canon? What do you say about these two texts in the Wisdom of Solomon and Sirach?

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Kosonen:

Philippians 1:16-18 does not (and cannot possibly) mean what you wrote. Your interpretation would cause Paul’s arguments to implode in on themselves.

What the apostle is talking about was his imprisonment and how it sparked opposite reactions. Some were emboldened to defend the gospel in the same way Paul did, (1:14) but some were stumbled by what had happened to Paul. An apostle in prison? So they were using this opportunity to try to worsen Paul’s hardship and undermine his ministry. (1:15) Some of these individuals were already in a competition with the apostle and so were all too eager to see Paul’s joy dampen, which Paul was not going to let happen, no matter what.--1:18.

Yet it is very important to realize that none of these other preachers, no matter how insincere they were, taught false doctrines. They were merely in competition with Paul or challenged his claim to being a chosen apostle since his call came after the initial Twelve. Paul would never rejoice in the spread of a false gospel or false doctrine.--See Gal. 1:7-8.

Therefore Kosonen’s above posting is not correct. As usual it is just a rerun of Watchtower teaching which takes no account of the context of the writing in which the verse appears or any methodology, such as having a basic knowledge of Pauline theology.

12

John 13:35 Mistranslated?

by KerryKing in

disclaimer!

i am not a bible translator not do i speak ancient greek or hebrew.. john 13: 35 nwt : 'by this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves '.. (curiously, this verse is not listed in the nwt index under the word 'disciples'.).

the biblehub interlinear reads : ' by this will know all that to me disciples you are if love you have among yourselves '.. could it actually mean, contrary to all bible translations, that it is jesus himself, and not people in general, who identifies his disciples because they show love among each other?.

PioneerSchmioneer

Elderberry,

I believe the LDS church, the Mormons, have the JWs beat on your claim.

Where I live, when someone new moves into a home or apartment, missionaries (women and young men) greet them ready to help them move in if they need or see if they need any help with getting situated into the area, finding any practical help they need. They will make sure they get connected to their church or syngagogue or temple or secular group--and any charities. They will also keep in contact with them if they need any further assistance or help them network if they are new to the area. The people don't even need to be Mormon or require a "letter" like they do in the Watchtower.

@ KerryKing:

I don't think any people or organization, religious or non-religious, secular, atheist, agnostic, Catholic, Protestant, etc., is free of guilt from the abuse and rape of children and babes. I myself was abused by my parents in just this way growing up. They were secular people, without religion. Being that way and very well educated and very wealthy didn't keep them from being enlightened enough from being horrible to their own children in just the same way. People have the capacity and desire to be evil and terrible and want to hurt other people--and they have the capacity to be good. Most people just won't do it. However a person chooses to dress, whether in secular or religious dress, doesn't change the fact about you wanting to be hurtful and evil.

12

John 13:35 Mistranslated?

by KerryKing in

disclaimer!

i am not a bible translator not do i speak ancient greek or hebrew.. john 13: 35 nwt : 'by this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves '.. (curiously, this verse is not listed in the nwt index under the word 'disciples'.).

the biblehub interlinear reads : ' by this will know all that to me disciples you are if love you have among yourselves '.. could it actually mean, contrary to all bible translations, that it is jesus himself, and not people in general, who identifies his disciples because they show love among each other?.

PioneerSchmioneer

I was a catechist and religious teacher for some time after I left the Watchtower, and I taught Biblical Greek in some of my relgious classes.

This is how you translate the verse, and this is what the verse means:

ἐν τούτῳ γνώσονται πάντες ὅτι ἐμοὶ μαθηταί ἐστε, ἐὰν ἀγάπην ἔχητε ἐν ἀλλήλοις.

With this will know all my disciples you are--if love you have with one another.--My own rough interlinear rendering.

Or as rendered in the ESV-Catholic Edition:

"By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."--John 13:35.

The idea here is that Jesus wanted his disciples to be self-sacrificing, not merely in serving the public to make disciples, but ongoing once a person was a disciple and part of the group--to the point of dying for one another if the need be. And so this has been the case throughout history from time to time, whether it has been literal or not.

As early as the days of the Church Fathers, Tertullian of Catharge wrote of how people commented about the Church:

“It is mainly the deeds of a love so noble that lead many to put a brand upon us. See how they love one another, they say, for they themselves are animated by mutual hatred; how they are ready even to die for one another, they say, for they themselves will sooner put to death (The Apology, ch. 39).”

The list of matyrs for the faith continues down to our era, many dying for the sake of others. There were grissly deaths of Catholics and Protestants in Asia in modern times, people who died at the hands of persecuting goverments at times in public demonstrations/executions after missionaries were sent away and all was left were these common, native people, many refusing to give up names of others who were practicing the faith. Some of these are now even canonized saints in the Catholic and Anglican faiths.

The JW interpretation has been one limited to how they themselves do good deeds to just members who stay faithful to their own religion. Once in a while someone might lose their lives due to persecution but it is rare. The number of canonized matyrs in Catholicism is over 14,000--that is just those canonized as saints. (See the Martyrologium Romanum Editio Typica Altera - 2004, which is the latest edition.) Many Christians die for their faith every year, out numbering the total of Jehovah's Witnesses who suffer matyrdom.

But the text also has reference to service to people in a way that Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to do, namely to love others as if they were members of their own religion even if they were not. This is how most Christians interpret the text.

They take the text and often see it as a parallel to Matthew 25:31-46 where Jesus talks about seeing and serving him in the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, sick, imprisoned, etc. If one can see Jesus in the least of these and serve him in them, then they truly "love one another."

But when people fail to do things like serve Jesus in the least, another text is used in this link:

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.--1 John 4:20.--ESV-CE.

Thus the difference in the way the text is often used by Christians in the mainstream compared to how it has been used by Jehovah's Witnesses. It is used to serve the public by Christianity, whereas it is used to be self-serving in the Watchtower.

68

Are Atheists Hypocritical in Celebrating Christmas?

by Sea Breeze in

jw
friends

richard dawkins revealed that he celebrates christmas on radio four's today programme.. here is is quoted as saying: .

'i am perfectly happy on christmas day to say merry christmas to everybody,' dawkins said.

'i might sing christmas carols - once i was privileged to be invited to kings college, cambridge, for their christmas carols and loved it.

PioneerSchmioneer

enoughisenough:

I believe Sea Breeze was speaking in the vernacular when using the expression "God's birthday."

Even Christians don't always go around being theologically exact and can call Christmas everything from "Jesus' birthday" to a "celebration of the birth of our Father in heaven."

None of this is technically correct, as I pointed out in a post on this thread earlier before.

After leaving the Watchtower, I used to teach both Catholic catechism and Protestant religion for a couple of decades. Christianity does not celebrate any "birthday" on the Christian yearly calendar, known as the "liturgical" calendar. It only celebrates or honors the death of martyrs, including that of Jesus Christ, on the day they died or were buried (such as "Good Friday" for Jesus).

Christmas (or as it is called on the Liturgical Calendar "The Nativity") is a religious observance to remind Christians of the miracle of the Incarnation, namely as described in Isaiah 7:14 where it reads that "he shall be called Immanuel," which Matthew explains means "God Is With Us," at chapter 1:23 of his gospel.

There were various Eucharistic feasts that were celebrated in honor of the miracle of the Incarnation (the belief that God became Man in the Person of Jesus Christ) throughout the early church, but they landed on different places on the Liturgical Calendar throughout the year.

One of the earliest celebrations of the Incarnation is known from the Jewish Christians that has come down to us in the Liturgy of Saint James. The written form of this mass that we now have in its current form is from the early 300s (probably right before the formal canonization of the New Testament) but portions of it do go back to before the Second Jewish Revolt.

There is a section for a celebration of the Incarnation. Still sung as part of the Roman Catholic liturgy today during the Christmas season, there is a hymn entitled Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence, and it is notably still part of the Night Prayer for Catholics beginning on Christmas Eve until February 2nd in the Liturgy of the Hours.

It was not until Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire and there was a demand to thus standarize the liturgy for the civilized world that the a date was settled for the Nativity. As we all know, we ended up with the date we now have--and it is not one day, but actually an 8-day feast called an octave.

As to Jesus being "God Almighty," Christmas, being the feast of the Incarnation and not a birthday--the "Incarnation" is the doctrine of God-made-man. That is the literal definition of the word "incarnation."

There is nothing wrong with using wording like "Jesus' birthday" or "God's birthday" or an atheist joining in the fun any more than a Jew eating attending a holiday party and eating a Christmas cookie or a non-Catholic celebrating St. Patrick's Day. You don't have to believe in a doctrine to be happy and rejoice and wish for peace to your fellow man.

But you do have to be a JW to be a real Scrooge and rotten and judgmental and think you are better than everyone else.

There's an old saying: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." There's a new saying too: "Read the room."

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

I think I may be barking up the wrong tree, so to speak. I am exiting this thread at this point and finding more productive ground.

ME===WALL

No progress.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

I think you may be missing the point. And I hope I am not bark up the wrong tree here--but so far it seems I have missed my target.

The idea is to be objective in order to be considerate of the conscientious views of anyone who reads your writing. This would mean you have to leave your personal feelings, your personal ideas, and especially your personal beliefs out of what you post.

This means you need to employ critical methodologies and often publish things you know are dependable and academically, even though the data isn’t what you believe.

Why would you do this? Because if you decide to do this, you are being a teacher, and that is a big responsibility. You can’t just share what you feel is right. You have to offer what is scholarly sound.

Thus you would have to employ the use of mainstream Bible translations, the critical-historical method, and use a methodology that doesn’t talk down to people or judge others who don't believe in the Bible or God. Many people who leave the Watchtower will choose not to believe in the Bible or will end up rejecting the notion of the supernatural, so your material should be useful to people who take this route after leaving the JWs.

By telling people that the 7-headed beast in Revelation could appear soon, you are still just showing you agree with Watchtower theology, even if you differ slightly with your conclusions.

The way you should have deal with this to help people leaving the Watchtower might something like the following:

Q: Is the 7-headed beast in Revelation among us or coming soon like the Watchtower teaches?

A: The book of Revelation is an apocalypse, a genre of Judeo-Christian that employed Jewish prophetic tropes and imagery to describe political intrigue and events that were current to the author(s).

Various books in this genre are the Book of Daniel, 1 Enoch, 2 and 3 Baruch, 4 Ezra, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Apocalypse of Peter.

Jehovah’s Witnesses use what Biblical scholarship labels as the “futurist view” of interpretation of Revelation, claiming that it is a book which foretells and forecasts events about Jehovah’s Witnesses and the world they will find themselves living in from 1914 onward. They also claim that only they will be able to understand its true meaning, thus slightly altering the “futurist view” to an exclusive one in favor of their religion.

However most scholars and researchers agree that the book was written to be understood and used by the readers of its cultural and historical context. It does in fact open up with the words:

Blessed is the one who reads the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.--Revelation 1:3, NRSVUE.

The image of the seven-headed beast in Revelation 13 comes from Daniel chapter 7, another apocalypse. That itself was speaking about the Hellenistic empires which oppressed Israel and led to the Jewish revolt against the Seleucid monarchy, liberating the Temple. The animal features here likewise are talking about rulers contemporary to the author, animal features in company with imperial Rome.

Unlike the teachings of the Watchtower, the Book of Revelation is not a forecast or prophecy of current world events.

23

Broadcasts, Are they just a distraction?

by KerryKing in

the recent broad casts about not handing in time sheets, and then about beards, especially the beards, it seems so trivial, are those talks only released in order to distract the followers from the recent court case they lost on spain, from the csa cases, the kh sales and so on?.

i reckon they're taking their lead from the media, distract and divide tactics..

PioneerSchmioneer

Of course it is a distraction. Next year is 2024, ten years from the 2014 year when the Governing Body was having all of Jehovah's Witnesses "celebrate" 100 years since C.T. Russell announce "the End of the Gentile Times" as if something was about to happen because it was a "special" year.

And the Governing Body started to play off that, especially when things like the pandemic broke out.

We are ridiculously far away from the failure of that annoucement and the predictions surrounding it, the claims that people who were 12 or 14 years of age before 1914 would survive before the Kingdom would arrive to take over world affairs. We have had the silly 1925 Rutherford forecast, and the 1975 fiasco too. The Faithful and Discreet Slave even called itself a composite Prophet for a time, calling itself the Ezekiel class (but it likes to forget that today).

There is no group of people who are 122 or 124 years of age and going, waiting for God's Kingdom on earth today, especially among the JWs. Nothing happened 10 years ago. Nothing happened 110 years ago.The only thing that has happened among those who have followed the teachings of the Watchtower is misguidance and eventual death.

So to hide all this they use a slide-of-hand trick and misdirection. The "new light" is just a bunch novel ideas: don't count time and grow a beard, etc. But what does it amount to? They have hidden that it's 2024--an anniversary of failure.

And something really hitting me since all this started too.

The not counting time thing "based" on the fact that the Jews "never reported tithes" is nonsense. Even in the Scriptures it shows that they did have a reporting system (not to mention that the Gemara shows that there was a responsa of record-keeping in Bible times that would eventually become the basis for the rabbinical system used in the Talmud). Malachi 3:8 for example shows that the prophets and the priests knew when people were not keeping up with giving their offerings as they should have, showing there was a system in place just as the Talmud claims.

And as for reporting what one does in the ministry, while nothing talks about writing down hours, the New Testament does show that the apostles did indeed come back to Jesus and would report to him what they would accomplish.--Luke 10:1, 17.

And as for their later claim that they can no longer state there is an end to the preaching work, that the "door" does not close, that it goes on and on, this is odd. In the parable of foolish virgins, when the bridegroom arrives, those who are not ready to greet him at his arrival find the door shut, finding it too late to get admission into the wedding feast.--Matthew 25:10-13.

While I don't believe in any Watchtower teachings like the preaching work and reporting hours or their end of the world calculations--nor do I believe the Bible supports their teachings in any way--I do believe they are now just telling their followers anything. At least in the past they were trying to study something, but now it is just tossing out doctrinal vomit to distract Witnesses from all the failure.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Kosonen:

For example I don’t believe what they teach about Armageddon, Babylon the Great, the King of the North, 1914, who can take of the emblems, women giving comments at meetings, about the attack of Gog, timing of the resurrection, marriage in resurrection, mark of the beast, worship of the beast, man of lawlessness, Covid vaccines, location of Mount Sinai, if remains of Noah’s ark are found, the true place where Israelites crossed the Red Sea, what the flight will be before the end, all about 1260, 1290, 1335 days and 42 months, and time, times and half a time and some more things.

And those are the things we want to hear about in depth, in great detail.

You can even repeat the stuff again and again, but from new angles because there are always new people coming out from the Watchtower who need to hear why these Watchtower teachings are not true. Explain what you don't find right about them. Give us personal details on what you found out and what you are still learning as time goes on.

But just posting a text from the Bible doesn't do much, especially if you give us some Watchtower teaching alongside of it. It even turns a lot of people off if you add that Jesus is the head of the JW congregation. You obviously can't believe this while disbelieving Watchtower doctrine. You can't have it both ways.

Perhaps you can still make the Scriptures come alive for many in a manner they don't expect, showing that it can be a tool for helping them leave the Watchtower behind instead of it being a way to hang on to their past.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Same thing here. No problem with the Scriptures. It's what you are "selling."

You have more or less told us you were once a Mormon who went to your bishop and told him that you no longer believe that Joseph Smith was God's prophet and that you didn't believe the Book of Mormon was true.

But everyday you post a text from the Book of Mormon and you then proceed to tell us what Joseph Smith teaches us about each passage your quote.

So all of us are like: "Why is he doing this?"

You are doing the same thing, but with Watchtower beliefs. If we wanted the Watchtower, we would not be here. Why do you think we would be listening to you? Do you want us to go back? You make little sense.

I am not trying to be mean. I just want you to reason with us. What are you trying to accomplish? If we are supposed to follow Watchtower teachings like you are recommending, then we would not be reading any of your posts because we aren't supposed to listen to a disfellowshipped person if you want us to buy into Watchtower theology again. So this would all be illogical.

Why quote from The Book of Mormon and promote its teachings if you don't want people to follow Mormonism?