Posts by PioneerSchmioneer

68

Are Atheists Hypocritical in Celebrating Christmas?

by Sea Breeze in

jw
friends

richard dawkins revealed that he celebrates christmas on radio four's today programme.. here is is quoted as saying: .

'i am perfectly happy on christmas day to say merry christmas to everybody,' dawkins said.

'i might sing christmas carols - once i was privileged to be invited to kings college, cambridge, for their christmas carols and loved it.

PioneerSchmioneer

enoughisenough:

I believe Sea Breeze was speaking in the vernacular when using the expression "God's birthday."

Even Christians don't always go around being theologically exact and can call Christmas everything from "Jesus' birthday" to a "celebration of the birth of our Father in heaven."

None of this is technically correct, as I pointed out in a post on this thread earlier before.

After leaving the Watchtower, I used to teach both Catholic catechism and Protestant religion for a couple of decades. Christianity does not celebrate any "birthday" on the Christian yearly calendar, known as the "liturgical" calendar. It only celebrates or honors the death of martyrs, including that of Jesus Christ, on the day they died or were buried (such as "Good Friday" for Jesus).

Christmas (or as it is called on the Liturgical Calendar "The Nativity") is a religious observance to remind Christians of the miracle of the Incarnation, namely as described in Isaiah 7:14 where it reads that "he shall be called Immanuel," which Matthew explains means "God Is With Us," at chapter 1:23 of his gospel.

There were various Eucharistic feasts that were celebrated in honor of the miracle of the Incarnation (the belief that God became Man in the Person of Jesus Christ) throughout the early church, but they landed on different places on the Liturgical Calendar throughout the year.

One of the earliest celebrations of the Incarnation is known from the Jewish Christians that has come down to us in the Liturgy of Saint James. The written form of this mass that we now have in its current form is from the early 300s (probably right before the formal canonization of the New Testament) but portions of it do go back to before the Second Jewish Revolt.

There is a section for a celebration of the Incarnation. Still sung as part of the Roman Catholic liturgy today during the Christmas season, there is a hymn entitled Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence, and it is notably still part of the Night Prayer for Catholics beginning on Christmas Eve until February 2nd in the Liturgy of the Hours.

It was not until Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire and there was a demand to thus standarize the liturgy for the civilized world that the a date was settled for the Nativity. As we all know, we ended up with the date we now have--and it is not one day, but actually an 8-day feast called an octave.

As to Jesus being "God Almighty," Christmas, being the feast of the Incarnation and not a birthday--the "Incarnation" is the doctrine of God-made-man. That is the literal definition of the word "incarnation."

There is nothing wrong with using wording like "Jesus' birthday" or "God's birthday" or an atheist joining in the fun any more than a Jew eating attending a holiday party and eating a Christmas cookie or a non-Catholic celebrating St. Patrick's Day. You don't have to believe in a doctrine to be happy and rejoice and wish for peace to your fellow man.

But you do have to be a JW to be a real Scrooge and rotten and judgmental and think you are better than everyone else.

There's an old saying: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." There's a new saying too: "Read the room."

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

I think I may be barking up the wrong tree, so to speak. I am exiting this thread at this point and finding more productive ground.

ME===WALL

No progress.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

I think you may be missing the point. And I hope I am not bark up the wrong tree here--but so far it seems I have missed my target.

The idea is to be objective in order to be considerate of the conscientious views of anyone who reads your writing. This would mean you have to leave your personal feelings, your personal ideas, and especially your personal beliefs out of what you post.

This means you need to employ critical methodologies and often publish things you know are dependable and academically, even though the data isn’t what you believe.

Why would you do this? Because if you decide to do this, you are being a teacher, and that is a big responsibility. You can’t just share what you feel is right. You have to offer what is scholarly sound.

Thus you would have to employ the use of mainstream Bible translations, the critical-historical method, and use a methodology that doesn’t talk down to people or judge others who don't believe in the Bible or God. Many people who leave the Watchtower will choose not to believe in the Bible or will end up rejecting the notion of the supernatural, so your material should be useful to people who take this route after leaving the JWs.

By telling people that the 7-headed beast in Revelation could appear soon, you are still just showing you agree with Watchtower theology, even if you differ slightly with your conclusions.

The way you should have deal with this to help people leaving the Watchtower might something like the following:

Q: Is the 7-headed beast in Revelation among us or coming soon like the Watchtower teaches?

A: The book of Revelation is an apocalypse, a genre of Judeo-Christian that employed Jewish prophetic tropes and imagery to describe political intrigue and events that were current to the author(s).

Various books in this genre are the Book of Daniel, 1 Enoch, 2 and 3 Baruch, 4 Ezra, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Apocalypse of Peter.

Jehovah’s Witnesses use what Biblical scholarship labels as the “futurist view” of interpretation of Revelation, claiming that it is a book which foretells and forecasts events about Jehovah’s Witnesses and the world they will find themselves living in from 1914 onward. They also claim that only they will be able to understand its true meaning, thus slightly altering the “futurist view” to an exclusive one in favor of their religion.

However most scholars and researchers agree that the book was written to be understood and used by the readers of its cultural and historical context. It does in fact open up with the words:

Blessed is the one who reads the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.--Revelation 1:3, NRSVUE.

The image of the seven-headed beast in Revelation 13 comes from Daniel chapter 7, another apocalypse. That itself was speaking about the Hellenistic empires which oppressed Israel and led to the Jewish revolt against the Seleucid monarchy, liberating the Temple. The animal features here likewise are talking about rulers contemporary to the author, animal features in company with imperial Rome.

Unlike the teachings of the Watchtower, the Book of Revelation is not a forecast or prophecy of current world events.

23

Broadcasts, Are they just a distraction?

by KerryKing in

the recent broad casts about not handing in time sheets, and then about beards, especially the beards, it seems so trivial, are those talks only released in order to distract the followers from the recent court case they lost on spain, from the csa cases, the kh sales and so on?.

i reckon they're taking their lead from the media, distract and divide tactics..

PioneerSchmioneer

Of course it is a distraction. Next year is 2024, ten years from the 2014 year when the Governing Body was having all of Jehovah's Witnesses "celebrate" 100 years since C.T. Russell announce "the End of the Gentile Times" as if something was about to happen because it was a "special" year.

And the Governing Body started to play off that, especially when things like the pandemic broke out.

We are ridiculously far away from the failure of that annoucement and the predictions surrounding it, the claims that people who were 12 or 14 years of age before 1914 would survive before the Kingdom would arrive to take over world affairs. We have had the silly 1925 Rutherford forecast, and the 1975 fiasco too. The Faithful and Discreet Slave even called itself a composite Prophet for a time, calling itself the Ezekiel class (but it likes to forget that today).

There is no group of people who are 122 or 124 years of age and going, waiting for God's Kingdom on earth today, especially among the JWs. Nothing happened 10 years ago. Nothing happened 110 years ago.The only thing that has happened among those who have followed the teachings of the Watchtower is misguidance and eventual death.

So to hide all this they use a slide-of-hand trick and misdirection. The "new light" is just a bunch novel ideas: don't count time and grow a beard, etc. But what does it amount to? They have hidden that it's 2024--an anniversary of failure.

And something really hitting me since all this started too.

The not counting time thing "based" on the fact that the Jews "never reported tithes" is nonsense. Even in the Scriptures it shows that they did have a reporting system (not to mention that the Gemara shows that there was a responsa of record-keeping in Bible times that would eventually become the basis for the rabbinical system used in the Talmud). Malachi 3:8 for example shows that the prophets and the priests knew when people were not keeping up with giving their offerings as they should have, showing there was a system in place just as the Talmud claims.

And as for reporting what one does in the ministry, while nothing talks about writing down hours, the New Testament does show that the apostles did indeed come back to Jesus and would report to him what they would accomplish.--Luke 10:1, 17.

And as for their later claim that they can no longer state there is an end to the preaching work, that the "door" does not close, that it goes on and on, this is odd. In the parable of foolish virgins, when the bridegroom arrives, those who are not ready to greet him at his arrival find the door shut, finding it too late to get admission into the wedding feast.--Matthew 25:10-13.

While I don't believe in any Watchtower teachings like the preaching work and reporting hours or their end of the world calculations--nor do I believe the Bible supports their teachings in any way--I do believe they are now just telling their followers anything. At least in the past they were trying to study something, but now it is just tossing out doctrinal vomit to distract Witnesses from all the failure.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Kosonen:

For example I don’t believe what they teach about Armageddon, Babylon the Great, the King of the North, 1914, who can take of the emblems, women giving comments at meetings, about the attack of Gog, timing of the resurrection, marriage in resurrection, mark of the beast, worship of the beast, man of lawlessness, Covid vaccines, location of Mount Sinai, if remains of Noah’s ark are found, the true place where Israelites crossed the Red Sea, what the flight will be before the end, all about 1260, 1290, 1335 days and 42 months, and time, times and half a time and some more things.

And those are the things we want to hear about in depth, in great detail.

You can even repeat the stuff again and again, but from new angles because there are always new people coming out from the Watchtower who need to hear why these Watchtower teachings are not true. Explain what you don't find right about them. Give us personal details on what you found out and what you are still learning as time goes on.

But just posting a text from the Bible doesn't do much, especially if you give us some Watchtower teaching alongside of it. It even turns a lot of people off if you add that Jesus is the head of the JW congregation. You obviously can't believe this while disbelieving Watchtower doctrine. You can't have it both ways.

Perhaps you can still make the Scriptures come alive for many in a manner they don't expect, showing that it can be a tool for helping them leave the Watchtower behind instead of it being a way to hang on to their past.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Same thing here. No problem with the Scriptures. It's what you are "selling."

You have more or less told us you were once a Mormon who went to your bishop and told him that you no longer believe that Joseph Smith was God's prophet and that you didn't believe the Book of Mormon was true.

But everyday you post a text from the Book of Mormon and you then proceed to tell us what Joseph Smith teaches us about each passage your quote.

So all of us are like: "Why is he doing this?"

You are doing the same thing, but with Watchtower beliefs. If we wanted the Watchtower, we would not be here. Why do you think we would be listening to you? Do you want us to go back? You make little sense.

I am not trying to be mean. I just want you to reason with us. What are you trying to accomplish? If we are supposed to follow Watchtower teachings like you are recommending, then we would not be reading any of your posts because we aren't supposed to listen to a disfellowshipped person if you want us to buy into Watchtower theology again. So this would all be illogical.

Why quote from The Book of Mormon and promote its teachings if you don't want people to follow Mormonism?

68

Are Atheists Hypocritical in Celebrating Christmas?

by Sea Breeze in

jw
friends

richard dawkins revealed that he celebrates christmas on radio four's today programme.. here is is quoted as saying: .

'i am perfectly happy on christmas day to say merry christmas to everybody,' dawkins said.

'i might sing christmas carols - once i was privileged to be invited to kings college, cambridge, for their christmas carols and loved it.

PioneerSchmioneer

jhine:

Agreed but Paul himself wouldn't sacrifice to idols.

Yes, but Paul was a Jewish Christian. Jews would not sacrifice to idols to begin with, whether Christian or not.

We are talking about an atheist to whom Christmas carols and secular trappings mean something different or nothing at all. The person may even be doing these things to irritate believers. Unless the person has disclosed this, you don't know why the person does what they do.

An atheist is not a person who lives in a bubble of non-belief. They merely do not believe in the God of Abraham or deities in general. But they have other personal convictions that they certainly believe in. So they prove true to these.

Only when they prove false to their personal convictions, whatever these may be, can one say they are a hypocrite. But unless you know what these may be, you cannot say these with any of them.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

You're evading the issue, Kosonen.

It's not about me believing you.

It's about YOU denying Jesus.

You say Jesus is the head of the JW congregation and that he doesn't always intervene with every problem, but you ran ahead and disagreed with Jesus' congregation, right?

YOU denied JESUS. You told us that you denied him and his congregation before the elders and got disfellowshipped for it, right? That is the issue. I am not disfellowshipped. I never did that.

"Whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father."--Matthew 10:32-33.

That is the issue.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Kosonen, you again wrote:

The truth is that Jesus is the head of the congregation.

Meaning the Jehovah's Witness religion, in your view (something I do not subscribe to.)

But what you don't seem to put together is that you spit in the face of your leader when you told that group that you didn't believe in its teachings, and therefore got disfellowshipped for it.

"If we deny him, he will deny us."--2 Timothy 2:12 b.

"Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father."--Matthew 10:32-33.

It is not so much about what happened to you, namely you getting disfellowshipped, but about if what you say is true, that if Jehovah's Witnesses are truly Jesus' congregation of whom he is the head, then it is YOU who did the very horrific and horrible thing.

If Jesus is the head of the congregation, then you should have been disfellowshipped for not believing in what they teach. You denied your Teacher. You deserved what you got.

And apparently you are unrepentant because you can't even understand that in Jehovah's Witness/Watchtower terms.

I was not raised as a Witness. I had a short stint as a convert among them and decided it was not for me way back during the Reagan adminstration. It was just a couple of college years out of my life, no biggie. No family or close friends lost.

But the point is not that the Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowshipped you--what THEY did to you--but what YOU did to JESUS--since you claim that Jesus is the head or leader of the religion.

You don't run away from something just because there are a few problems.

You said it yourself: "He does not intervene to every problem that exists or arises in his congregation." Does that not apply to a few teachings and doctrines in the congregation that you did not agree with?

Apparently you were too impatient or do not believe your own arguments or just use them when they are convenient for you, huh?

While I may believe in God and the Scriptures, what I don't believe in is you. And now you see why.

It's not that I want you to actually return to the Jehovah's Witnesses. But you're arguments do not make any sense.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

I am confused, Kosonen. I hope you realize that even though this probably comes across like an attack, I have read your comments on here and they are contradicting.

You have stated:

I believe that Jesus is still the head of the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses.

But you have also made it clear that you were disfellowshipped from the JWs because you took a stand because you disagreed with some of their teachings.

You continue to more or less present Watchtower theology to us here on this thread and quote their New World Translation.

Therefore, following your own logic, this would mean that Jesus has formally rejected you because his religion, the Jehovah's Witnesses, formally dispelled you from their midst.

Why? Because you disagreed with Jesus and his teachings that came from his religion, as you claim above.

You cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus is the head of the religion that disfellowshipped you and you should go back and stop associating with exJWs, or Jesus is not the head of that religion and you are just lying to yourself--and you find that too painful to admit to yourself.

In fact, it sounds like you find both options to painful to admit to yourself, that you rejected Jesus' teachings and Jesus therefore rejected you and now you are out in the darkness or you were just in a false religion all the time and you are playing their false teachings again and again around in your head like a vinyl recording with a skip in it that you won't fix.

Either way, you are in a paradox of rejection.

This is why the folks on here are teasing you, if you are not aware. They aren't really making fun of the Bible or religion itself, per se--I mean, they are in a way, but it's based on your brand of religion which is still the Watchtower. It is your brand of "Encouraging Scriptures" that you try to offer each day in immitation of the Daily Text that the Watchtower has tried to pull off for its followers.

What you are doing is a painful cycling of self-service, not for others but trying to convince yourself that you are some sort of enlightened or spirit guided spring of spiritual knowledge, borrowing teachings from the Watchtower and spreading these to others. You didn't come up with any of this. You won't even use a different version of the Bible.

A ministry should be for the aid of what other people need, learning their needs first and then meeting that need, not deciding for yourself first what that need is and then telling people "This is what you need so here, take it!" like what you have been doing.

People started to ask you serious questions, which you just ignored. Then teasing questions. (Then some debates between people started.) Then then teasing of continued because you are in your own self-centered world.

You still just go on ignoring other people. All you do is quote texts.

You are just serving yourself.

Go back to the Watchtower if you still believe in it.

Or admit to yourself that it is what it is.

But you are on a fence. We all see it. And this "daily text" thing you do, is just something you are doing to satisfy your own ego. It's very sad...and a little funny. But mostly sad.

I believe that Jesus is still the head of the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses.

And if that congregation disfellowshipped you for you saying it taught wrong things, then that means you don't believe Jesus is the head of that congregation.

So why should we believe any of what you are saying here? Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?