observations: if man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism .... if men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe.
individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.. materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.
but whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a master mathematician?
Okay Believer, so the principle you are following is that if I don't know how something works that means your explanation is correct?
If not, please explain what principle you are following because I am confused...
You’re confused because your position is inconsistent. One the one hand nonbelievers require believers to prove the existence of God, but you assert that a believer must prove the existence of your imaginary computer. The inconsistency is what's confusing you.
observations: if man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism .... if men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe.
individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.. materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.
but whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a master mathematician?
Believer - Could you sum up your argument in one succinct sentence?
No. Arguments by nature cannot be summed up on one succinct sentence. However, the conclusion reached by the observations is that man is more than a machine and the universe is more than a mechanism.
Are you really promoting Urantia? Really?
I shared some observations from the Urantia Book on the issue of materialism. It is one point of view. And one point of view that I happen to agree with. You are free to ignore it or reject. However, it does present food for thought.
There is a section here in which to post topics for debate.
TimeBandit, any attempt to share a spiritual idea turns into a debate. There is no place on this entire site where a spiritual idea can be shared among believers that is not turned into a debate by nonbelievers. And btw, I'm not interested in a debate. But I am interested in seeing how nonbelievers respond to the observations. And it has been interesting!
observations: if man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism .... if men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe.
individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.. materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.
but whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a master mathematician?
One could say though that the human imagination is a part of are reality, but its not materiel
Now we’re getting somewhere. Since man has imagination, he is not wholly material. There is something else at play.
Nonsense..
It`s presenting the spiritual as fact,without providing a shred of evidence..
(Because.....There isn`t any..)
The unfortunate result of threads like this is..
They incite extreme prejudice of rabid non believers,against any and all believers..
It`s a pity that..
Less obnoxious Believers will be Crucified for Your Sins/Threads..
Outlaw, the thread is an observation based on reason and logic. I thought that’s what nonbelievers are fond of.
And if me posting mere observations based on reason and logic would cause a nonbeliever to crucify believers who had nothing to do with this thread, then you are adding fuel to the idea that nonbelievers lack genuine morality. A person who would do that is no different than the primitive Hebrews concept of God whom you so readily condemn.
observations: if man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism .... if men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe.
individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.. materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.
but whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a master mathematician?
Sorry but that's not how it works.
Says who? I don't think you're an authority on "how it works."
observations: if man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism .... if men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe.
individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.. materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.
but whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a master mathematician?
How do you know a machine cannot do those things?
Well, you can prove the concept wrong by identifying a machine that can do all those things. And make sure it’s a computer that spontaneously created itself. Otherwise such a computer would add to the argument that there has to be an intelligent Creator.
observations: if man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism .... if men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe.
individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.. materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.
but whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a master mathematician?
Actually having read the OP I'm unmarking. Answered this sort of facile stuff so many times already it's tedious
But of course!
observations: if man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism .... if men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe.
individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.. materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.
but whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a master mathematician?
All throughout human history there never has been any viably proven existence of spiritualism other than hearsay, drawn out of ignorance of the world in which we live.
The observations are simply addressing the unreasonableness of excluding spiritualism.
observations: if man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism .... if men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe.
individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.. materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.
but whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a master mathematician?
Regarding machines, there is simple "soulless" machines and there are extremely complicated machines that are so sophisticated that even come with a soul. It's just a matter of semantics.
If there ever will be such a computer, it won’t spontaneously create itself. It will be the product of a super intelligent computer programmer.
observations: if man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism .... if men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe.
individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.. materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe.
but whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a master mathematician?
Observations: If man is merely a machine and the universe is merely a mechanism ...
If men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe. Individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.
Materialism reduces man to a soulless automaton and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe. But whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a Master Mathematician?
If the universe were merely a mechanism and mind were unapart from matter, we would never have two differing interpretations of any observed phenomenon. The concepts of truth, beauty, and goodness are not inherent in either physics or chemistry. A machine cannot know, much less know truth, hunger for righteousness, and cherish goodness.
If man is only a machine, by what technique does this man come to believe or claim to know that he is only a machine? The experience of self-conscious evaluation of one’s self is never an attribute of a mere machine. A self-conscious and avowed mechanist is the best possible answer to mechanism. If materialism were a fact, there could be no self-conscious mechanist.
If the universe were truly what the materialist regards it to be, man as a human machine would then be devoid of all conscious recognition of that very fact. Without the consciousness of the concept of values within the spirit-born mind, the fact of universe materialism and the mechanistic phenomena of universe operation would be wholly unrecognized by man. One machine cannot be conscious of the nature or value of another machine.
If the universe were only material and man only a machine, there would be no science to embolden the scientist to postulate this mechanization of the universe. Machines cannot measure, classify, nor evaluate themselves. Such a scientific piece of work could be executed only by some entity of supermachine status.
If this were only a material universe, material man would never be able to arrive at the concept of the mechanistic character of such an exclusively material existence. This very mechanistic concept of the universe is in itself a nonmaterial phenomenon of mind, and all mind is of nonmaterial origin, no matter how thoroughly it may appear to be materially conditioned and mechanistically controlled.
If this were merely a material universe and man only a machine, such a man would be wholly unable to recognize himself as such a machine, and likewise would such a machine-man be wholly unconscious of the fact of the existence of such a material universe. The materialistic dismay and despair of a mechanistic science has failed to recognize the fact of the spirit-indwelt mind of the scientist whose very supermaterial insight formulates these mistaken and self-contradictory concepts of a materialistic universe.
The very claim of materialism implies a supermaterial consciousness of the mind which presumes to assert such dogmas. A mechanism might deteriorate, but it could never progress. Machines do not think, create, dream, aspire, idealize, hunger for truth, or thirst for righteousness. They do not motivate their lives with the passion to serve other machines and to choose as their goal of eternal progression the sublime task of finding God and striving to be like him. Machines are never intellectual, emotional, aesthetic, ethical, moral, or spiritual.
How foolish to presume that an automaton could conceive a philosophy of automatism, and how ridiculous that it should presume to form such a concept of other and fellow automatons!
The partially evolved mental mechanism of mortal man is not overendowed with consistency and wisdom. Man’s conceit often outruns his reason and eludes his logic.
Taken from Materialism and The Vulneribility of Materialism.
i was asked to view the video “dear believer, why do you believe?” i said i would and i would publish my comments about it.
so here are my comments.
after my post, i hope other believers will post theirs comments about it.
DJS and Cofty, you have some kind of persecution fixation that turns any expression by a believer OF HIS OWN BELIEFS into a personal attack on you. It is clear that no amount of reason will penetrate your fixation. So, I will leave you to your own devices.
