Posts by KalebOutWest

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

KalebOutWest

Of course it depends on the lexicon, the scholar, the academic, etc., you are reading and why they are saying what they are saying.

To remind everyone, the Trinity dogma was a response to a heresy as were other creeds and dogmatic statements in the Church. Even the New Testament Canon itself was started as and a reply to the Marcionist threat begun in the 2nd century.

Unlike what is taught by Jehovah's Witnesses, the apocalypse commonly known as Revelation was unknown until the Canon was closed. Popular reading among the Christians would have included the Shepherd of Hermas of the Apocalypse of Peter if the Canon were chosen by what was commonly used by the majority of disciples.

The Church Fathers repeatedly have made clear that it was by common revelation or understanding via guidance from the Holy Spirit that Christians came to realize the Jesus and later the Holy Spirit were God. There was no official Biblical Canon set as an authority as this understanding was developing.

One cannot find in the Canon, for example, where a listing of any books appear, such as Revelation or the Gospels, or that there should be 27 books added to the Hebrew Scriptures--or that there should be Scriptures at all. The idea that truths are based on writings cannot be proven as true.

Yet, if we are going to satisfy Jehovah's Witnesses and their curiosity and the ideas of conflicting ideas in texts, the book of Revelation says a lot of things about Jesus, God, and reality that isn't meant to be taken literal. It is an apocalypse, a genre that purposefully employs Jewish prophetic tropes to discuss political intrigue and how this is currently affecting the people of God. The books of Enoch and Daniel are of the same genre.

Cults like Jehovah's Witnesses employ loaded language to attempt to influence their adherents to believe that they have special knowledge, that outsiders do not, that old systems cannot be trusted, and that there is a secret war going on between "us-and-them." All of this creates an ongoing atmosphere of distrust in the minds of followers that I have seen linger in the very souls of exJWs for a lifetime after they leave as well--and it isn't the fault of those who leave. Cults have long lasting, long reaching effects.

Whatever Jesus might be called is one sentence of a non-literal composition about him is not a means for a theological argument one way or another. However if you want to try, here is what you get. In Revelation 3:14, the "beginning of God's creation" in Greek uses the same word found at John 1:1: ARKHE.

The word in the New Testament rarely means "first" and does not actually get used as in "first" to be created. It means "primary" or "primacy" as at Colossians 1:18, where it is actually contrasted with the word "firstborn," as ARKHE PROTOTOKOS.

Thus it cannot mean the 'first to be created' since in Colossians the word combination stands side-by-side. That would be a redundant statement.

Generally the word ARKHE means "beginning" as in the "start of time" or one's life (Mt 19:4, 8; 24:21: Mk 10:6). It also means a "magistrate" or "ruler" or even the state ruled by a prince, a "principality" (Luke 12:11; 1 Co 15:24; Ro 8:35). And even God the Father is later spoken of like this, using similar language at the end of the book in Revelation at 21:6, called the "beginning."

The problem is that Watchtower formula of distrust can haunt former believers. We don't have to become Trinitarians. But the fact is that the Trinity is the reality of Christianity, not a conspiracy.

Christians do not claim a Bible-based doctrine for their faith in most cases. They might claim support, but not foundation. This is a grand, very grand difference.

24

The Kingdom of God - when in Heaven ? -- according to Jesus

by wantingtruth in

john said "...the truth came through jesus christ" ?

--------the kingdom of god---------- .

"the kingdom of god is near.

KalebOutWest

FragrantAddendum:

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

That is not, I repeat, not, the view of my own people, the Jews.

The view of the "kingdom" or more precisely "when God reigns" is prayed for daily in the Jewish Siddur, most often during Kaddish.

In contrast, as these various prayers state, it is when God will control all matters over the earth to such an extent that God will be recognized as King and all types of idolatry will be banished, everywhere.

While it has spiritual aspects or dimensions, it in itself is not a spiritual kingdom like the Christian version. Whereas Jesus taught that the Kingdom does not come by observation but is within (Luke 17:20-21), Jewish theology refers to a literal planetary change for the sake of humanity.

However, it should be noted that this view applies only to the religious among Judaism and not the secular.

19

Not only the ORG who perverts Scriptures!

by BoogerMan in

john 14:6 - "jesus said to him, “i am the way, the truth, and the life.

no one comes to the father except through me.".

certain christian denominations lie & contradict jesus' crystal clear statement, by promoting the following dogma:.

KalebOutWest

Jews also believe in the intercession of saints. It did not originate with Roman Catholicism.

I think Watchtower religion still affects the minds of many who leave and some never progress past Fundamentalism or literal reading of the Bible as if it came first, then Judaism and then the New Testament and Christians followed. These concepts of Restorationists aren't historical or even logical. The religions came first, then members from within wrote the texts. Centuries later authorities of the religions canonized texts they preferred to stop heretics, like the Marcionists.

The idea that fellow believers pray for us even after we die goes back to Jewish days that influenced the first Christians. Upon burying martyrs they continued to ask these fellow saints for their intercession to never stop now that they were in heaven with God. There were no letters of Paul or written Gospels circulating when this practice started. It is far more ancient, as the writings of the Apostolic Fathers prove and the catacombs.

The New Testament is a later work and Paul's epistles apply to counter the claims of Marcion of Sinope, not Christians who asked for the intercession of saints.

24

The Kingdom of God - when in Heaven ? -- according to Jesus

by wantingtruth in

john said "...the truth came through jesus christ" ?

--------the kingdom of god---------- .

"the kingdom of god is near.

KalebOutWest

When Jesus saw that he answered wisely he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."--Mark 12:34.

The mainstream Christian concept of the "kingdom of God" is different from what the Watchtower teaches.

It is neither located anywhere nor is it a future reality. Like heartfelt obedience to the commands of a ruler or king, the "kingdom of God" is having the grace to understand the law of God and live obediently to it out of love.

The obedience of a disciple creates, according to this doctrine, a residency in the Kingdom of God now and forever. "Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."--John 14:23.

This is what the reference in Revelation, according to this doctrine, is talking about:

"You...have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth."--Revelation 5:10.

While this doctrine is highly different from the one Jehovah's Witnesses teach (and their New World Translation changes the wording in Revelation to read "over" instead of "on" so that the reference is to the 144,000 and no to the Church), the idea of Christianity is that Jesus Christ brings an antitypical kingdom, one with a constitution "written in the heart" unlike a Jewish earthly government that had laws written upon "stone."--Ezekiel 11:17-20; 36:24-27; Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:10.

In Watchtower theology, the kingdom is still the same type of kingdom that it was in the days of David, just moved to heaven. And it "comes" on some calendar date.--Compare Acts 1:6 where Jesus implies that this type of kingdom is obsolete.

But the other is dependent only on the disciple who loves their Lord and the grace given them in the relationship to govern their heart, much like a lover or the relationship described in the Song of Songs. It is spiritual and beyond reasoning. "Love cannot be bought. Any offer would be scorned no matter how great."--Song of Songs 8:7.

78

God, one person, or three?

by slimboyfat in

the trinity doctrine says god is three persons in one being.. yet the bible says god is one.. gal 3.20 a mediator, however, implies more than one party; but god is one.

niv.

gal 3.20 now a mediator is not for just one person, but god is one.

KalebOutWest

Praotes1914

My mentor Joe Riley coined the phase the Twinity.

From my Jewish point of view, that's just another Christian making up another dogma, but as I like to say: You do you. I like that word "Twinity."

However, I can give the Trinitarians this. The term "Son" doesn't mean "child" or "male offspring" as the Gospel wasn't written in English. You are just reading it in English. It was composed by Jews in a Roman world.

The term "son of god" in the Roman world meant "incarnation of a deity" such a when Caesar claimed he was divine.

Also in Hebrew, as in Psalm 2:7, when God tells the anointed king that he begets him as a "son," it doesn't mean that God is making the earthly king into another male child or turning him into a new male offspring of God. It means that the person is anointed as a divine representative of God, almost like an "image" or a "logo" such as a trademark for a corporation, becoming like God to the people. Of interest the Greek word logos is translated "Word" in John 1:1 and literally means "representative" or "image."

The expression "son of man" doesn't mean "child of man" but merely "a man" or even "me, myself and I." It is a Hebrewism. The expression "son of David" doesn't mean "child of David" but the Messiah. A blind beggar uses this to his advantage and gets rebuked by a crowd when trying to get Jesus' attention, but Jesus calls it an act of faith and heals him for it.--Luke 18:35-43.

Thus the expression "Son of God" has implications in my culture not created by Christianity. It is one of the main reasons Jesus of Nazareth is rejected by the Jewish people because this is a direct title and claim of divinity in Hebrew culture.

78

God, one person, or three?

by slimboyfat in

the trinity doctrine says god is three persons in one being.. yet the bible says god is one.. gal 3.20 a mediator, however, implies more than one party; but god is one.

niv.

gal 3.20 now a mediator is not for just one person, but god is one.

KalebOutWest

The genius behind Joseph Smith to going around much of this formula (start with Scripture and base your religion on holy writ) was to invent and introduce new texts to begin with.

One would always have the paradox of the "Church came first/Trinity came first" before the New Testament to trip up the Restorationist. So Smith merely did what the others were too frightened to do: committed heresy and blasphemy by introducing a "third" Testament that claimed the other two invalid.

Like the song from the musical goes:

"I believe...that Jews built boats and sailed to America!"

And:

"Don't show anybody the Golden Plates, not even if anyone begs you to...That's what I'm kinda going for."

78

God, one person, or three?

by slimboyfat in

the trinity doctrine says god is three persons in one being.. yet the bible says god is one.. gal 3.20 a mediator, however, implies more than one party; but god is one.

niv.

gal 3.20 now a mediator is not for just one person, but god is one.

KalebOutWest

Of course you could also be like my staunchly Catholic neighbor who told me the following:

The Church canonized the New Testament back in the day [in 367 CE by bishop Athanasius of Alexandia and then formally at Hippo in 393]. The Trinity dogma was introduced by the same Church just shortly before [which was in Nicea in 325 CE]. So if we accept the 27 books of the New Testament as inspired and want to look in it as an authority for anything on anything, then we also have to accept the Trinity because the same Church that gave us and closed the canon told us that God is a Trinity. Or do you believe there are still more or less books to the New Testament?*

She's an older lady, but if you want to argue with her and her reasoning, I'm sure she would welcome it. I don't know if she's on the Internet however or has email.

*--I inserted the dates and historical information. The quote is a paraphrase, as I heard it several times from her arguing with Mormon missionaries, her favorite targets. (She likes to offer them tea, coffee, and Coca-Cola to drink when they come by.)

78

God, one person, or three?

by slimboyfat in

the trinity doctrine says god is three persons in one being.. yet the bible says god is one.. gal 3.20 a mediator, however, implies more than one party; but god is one.

niv.

gal 3.20 now a mediator is not for just one person, but god is one.

KalebOutWest

Thank you, Pete.

I think what makes the Trinity and certain "traditional" doctrines so confusing for Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and other members (and ex-members) of NRMs from the Second Great Awakening is the type of indoctrination process and the isolationism that most of these groups pass off as "elitism." (Neither of which is good anyway.) What results is a form of individual incapacity to comprehend a major facet of the human experience, that is "spirituality."

In the Watchtower religion, indoctrination is carried out by means of never allowing members to be alone with a Bible without the presence of a guiding Watchtower publication. From the moment an individual is introduced to the religion, the member never reads Scripture without Watchtower guidance. They even yearn to read only a Watchtower "version" or a so-called "translation" of the Bible made up by the Watchtower religion.

What is really happening (and as described by outsiders who visit), Witnesses offer a "chain-reference" type of "reasoning" or logic-system/type of scholastic experience for their followers. Whether it's the introductory book used for main indoctrination or a Watchtower study or a public or Memorial season talk, Jehovah's Witnesses "make sense" of a topic by "linking" Scripture texts that might seemingly appear to logically settle a subject. Often they are merely using similar phrases or even words in English that seem to say something but don't in the original language that each sound or look the same in topical fashion to "prove" or support a view they might have, often collecting dizzying amount of these. The more texts they have in the list, the more "links" they have to make the "chain" stronger, thus the expression "chain-reference."

An illustration of this is the 1914/Daniel chapter 4 dream that uses Scripture texts from all over the Bible, from trees in one section, to the word year in another place, until they can "support" their personal belief that Jesus is ruling in heaven invisibly and that two groups make up but one generation and that are humanity is currently living in the Last Days. This is a perfect illustration of the "chain-reference" system that hops and jumps about the Bible, cutting and pasting passing references lit hit-and-run car scratches that one barely would notice while reading at first blush.

This system, unfortunately, often gets ingrained and stays in the minds of many of us even after we leave the Watchtower. While study is very important, religion in and of itself is not a scholastic exercise. There are scholars and academics called theologians of which the Watchtower has none, but religion is not made up of theologians. It is made up of spiritual people. And both Judaism and Christianity claims as its champions not sages and prophets but saints.

This is something that a person leaving a system like the Jehovah's Witnesses that is nothing but "read and study" system will find hard to deal with and find learning things like sacraments and miracles and the Trinity a hard thing to swallow. (And in reality we did not study--if you believed you were studying, you were lied to, we merely underlined things which was the equivlent of being fed vomit into our mouths by the Governing Body much like mother birds do for their baby birds. Personal study was not allowed in the world of the Watchtower religion, as all such activity would leave to being disfellowshipped eventually if this occurred--or leaving on ones own because you would have learned your were in a cult through actual academic research). One cannot be spiritual and grow to become holy. That would require getting to literally experience the Divine which would require moving past logic into the spiritual and the ineffable.There is nothing like that in the Watchtower experience.

So trying to make sense of the Trinity cannot be done by what is left over after the Watchtower created damage in its people, not immediately at least or with what little experience we had from that cult.

It is not the fault of the concept of the Trinity. Is it true? That is for us to discover. But we go about it in a wrong manner, like when we say: "Bible first." That is a Watchtower approach. It is not our fault when that happens either. It is an automatic reflex almost. We think, "Well, what else should we do?" Most of us have no other recourse. We have little experience with religion when you think about it.

Outside, people understand "mystery" as meaning a truth that comes from some spiritual source revealed via grace and responded to with love and personal faith. It doesn't sit well with someone who is used to sitting down and reading Watchtower concepts in a book and looking at up chain-references in the New World Translation and then underlining things with a yellow marker to ensure we "say things in our own words" later in a meeting.

But we are doing ourselves and those who believe in the Trinity a horrible wrong when we get angry at everyone but Jehovah's Witnesses for not comprehending or believing in the Trinity. We might never come to believe in it, and that is fine. It is incomprehensible not because the Trinity doesn't fit "the box." It doesn't seem to fit because we're too used to having to underline everything and make sure there are hundreds of references that in reality don't matter.

You can't underline truth with a yellow highlighter.

78

God, one person, or three?

by slimboyfat in

the trinity doctrine says god is three persons in one being.. yet the bible says god is one.. gal 3.20 a mediator, however, implies more than one party; but god is one.

niv.

gal 3.20 now a mediator is not for just one person, but god is one.

KalebOutWest

Rattigan350:

People say they look to Jesus as being God because of John 1:1.

This is not true. Jehovah's Witnesses are taught this, namely that Trinitarians and other Christians are like them, attempting to base their beliefs on the Bible, but this is not the way Christianity developed.

Like Judaism before it, Christianity was not a religion that came from texts. It's own believers of its religion wrote texts, and later church authorities in the 4th century ended up canonizing them in response to the threat created by Marcion of Sinope.

I am Jewish, and I know very much that the early Christians came to believe Jesus was God before there were any Scriptural texts. In fact, the great dogmas that describe the Trinity claim that the Christians came to this understanding on the basis of it being a divine "mystery," even claiming the Trinity the "central mystery" of Christianity.

A "mystery" is a truth that cannot be learn academically because it is ineffable since it deals with aspects of the divine. It takes an intervention of the divine to teach it as well. Once taught, it can only be accepted as is.

For instance, the apostle Paul wrote of the mystery of God leading the Jews and Roman's together to arrest Jesus to put him to death in order to provide a sacrifice for all the sins of history. The idea seems totally illogical, wrote Paul, but as he wrote:

We speak God's wisdom, a hidden mystery, which God decreed before the ages for our glory and which none of the rulers of this age understood.--1 Corinthians 2:7-8.

In another instance, the "mystery" of Jesus' identity was made known to Peter, not because Peter read it in Scripture or because any type of human wisdom lead him to this conclusion, with Jesus telling him:

"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven."--Matthew 16:17.

Granted, Jehovah's Witnesses don't have anything like this in their experience. Being from Second Great Awakening beginnings, their movement is based on a restorationist theology that believes that the Bible came first before the people who had a religion who wrote it, which oddly creates a paradox. Historically it is the other way around, with religion coming first with its practices, rituals, and dogmas and then its texts. There are no scholars in most of the New Religious Movements that sprung forth from the Second Great Awakening that caused this problem.

With that loss is the absence of the knowledge of religious mysteries, which in Judeo-Christian circles are great truths that cannot be fully explained or understood. Judaism has always had them as well (i.e., God has no beginning). The Trinity is such a truth in Christianity.

It is not "based" on John 1:1, rather it is the other way around. John 1:1 is based on this mystery. The mystery is often called "central" since it refers to "Jesus" and his identity which is a central point of the gospel message.

Before the New Testament was composed, there was the faith of believers. Then there was the Liturgy. The gospel was added to this. Eventually the gospel came to be written down and added into the Liturgy itself. Letters of the Apostles came to be written and were circulated and added as well.

The Church Fathers, in response to the Marcion controversy, would eventually create the New Testament Canon, but by this point in time it would be the 4th century and there would already be a Trinty dogma.

Often the JW view of "Bible came first, then came Christians, then Christianity" stays stuck with people long after they leave the Organization. The way it happened was the other way around: Christians, then Christianity, and finally Bible.

If it were not for the heresy of Marcion of Sinope of the 2nd century, Christianity might not have ever had a New Testament Canon or at least not had one as soon as they did (let alone the Jews). Marcion's heresy forced the idea onto the scene for both the Church and Judaism ad neither group has a closed canon from which they were basing their beliefs. This idea of the Watchtower is but a fairy tale.

33

Are the halls of the Kingdom filling up, are they the same as before the pandemic or are they emptying?

by LaFrancia in

i open a new topic, to find out how it's going in your area.

from what i see as a southern european in my constituency the situation is patchy.. the congregation where i am now has 30% old people on zoom but also young couples with almost all their cameras off.

no increase but a slight decrease in the total number of publishers.. circuit assemblies: before covid you couldn't find a free seat if you arrived 10 minutes before the start.

KalebOutWest

LV101: I have no idea what JW attendance us like. I have not attended a meeting in some 30 years. I've never ever seen a Las Vegas or Henderson (suburban) Kingdom Hall, but I do know they are here. Where? Not on major roads of any type.

But Las Vegas is a very religious area, oddly. It was founded by Mormon missionaries. While at one time the majority of locals was Mormon, the majority religion became Roman Catholic. The Las Vegas Guardian Angel Cathedral on the Las Vegas Strip is one if the most beautiful pieces of modern architecture in the US.

There are so many Catholics in Las Vegas that it has recently become an archdiocese and a second bishop to assist the archbishop had to be assigned.

I don't know what condition the Las Vegas JWs are in, but the local Witnesses have to be quite numerous to have hosted the influx of visiting JWs that came to assist for the Superbowl as there were JWs from all over the world here on that Sunday alone.