Posts by KalebOutWest

271

VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

by jwposter in

in my studies, i have concluded that year 530 bc was when the destruction of jerusalem occurred and the temple destroyed.

i had determined this prior to investigation of vat4956.

i had already found that the jubilees, sabbaticals, courses of the priests, and chronology attested to this.

KalebOutWest

Forget everthing I posted anything then.

271

VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

by jwposter in

in my studies, i have concluded that year 530 bc was when the destruction of jerusalem occurred and the temple destroyed.

i had determined this prior to investigation of vat4956.

i had already found that the jubilees, sabbaticals, courses of the priests, and chronology attested to this.

KalebOutWest

Jeffro,

You are not arguing over VAT 4956.

You have been posting some of the brightest, most intelligent, smartest, well-researched words I have ever seen.

You are not against anything VAT 4956 states or points to. You obviously agree with all the critical evidence.

Thus I was not speaking to you.

Just as my post on Sabbath Moons was designed to counter jwposter, what I wrote was against jwposter's arguments.

Your arguments are against jwposter, and they are brilliant arguments.

I don't know why you always think I am agaist you or are always criticizing me or seem angry or talking to me like I'm acting superior. You are the one always correcting me and arguing with me and looking down on me.

I thought you did a wonderful job.

Why are you like this, thinking I was writing something negative about you? I didn't even have you in mind in those words as they were directed at jwposter.

Why be negative towards me all the time?

271

VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

by jwposter in

in my studies, i have concluded that year 530 bc was when the destruction of jerusalem occurred and the temple destroyed.

i had determined this prior to investigation of vat4956.

i had already found that the jubilees, sabbaticals, courses of the priests, and chronology attested to this.

KalebOutWest

And by the way, I have it on good authority from friends who have been working at Bethel for several years (and I had a hard time wrapping my mind around this), but several years ago they hired a group (or "the group") that helps religions like the Mormons reshape the image by suggesting what doctrines they should change to keep up with the times and even how to project their image to the public by branding themselves.

This group has inspired all the changes over the past several years.

One of the major changes about to occur is 1914.

It is one the way out very soon.

So all this arguing over Vat 4956 is useless.

Just like beards, slacks for women, and now talking to disfellowshipped people and greeting them, your precious views on 1914 and the date for Jerusalem's fall and the Exile are going to be outdated by decisions made by a PR company to the Governing Body.

I don't know exactly when, but it's on their upcoming schedule.

But continue to waste your time.

271

VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

by jwposter in

in my studies, i have concluded that year 530 bc was when the destruction of jerusalem occurred and the temple destroyed.

i had determined this prior to investigation of vat4956.

i had already found that the jubilees, sabbaticals, courses of the priests, and chronology attested to this.

KalebOutWest

It is true that in early Judaism, Shabbat was originally a full moon celebration. This was not the pattern observed after the Exile or in the days of Second Temple Judaism of the 1st century.

But this full moon celebration transferred over to our major Festivals and Holy Days, for if you notice, Passover, Yom Kippur, and the like, all begin on the 15th, the day of the full moon.

The Holy Days replaced the original full moon celebration, and Shabbat became a weekly celebration.

The Holy Days had other meanings before the Exile but were later given their final liturgical setting afterwards.

A very fine article of Orthodox academia, TheTorah.com, offers the following (though it continues beyond what it presented here, with the actual article linking to a second section explaining how we got the weekly Shabbat we know today):

Early biblical laws demand a cessation of labor every seven days, but that was unconnected to Shabbat, which was originally a full moon celebration.

The Monthly Shabbat and the Seventh Day of Rest

The seven-day weekly cycle has no inherent connection to nature. Yet it became central to Judaism, and through Judaism it now structures time and labor cycles across the globe. When the Roman emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, he adopted the seven-day week in accordance with the rotation of Shabbat (Sabbath) long established by Jews. As Christianity spread, so did the Jewish week. Although Revolutionary France, the Soviet Union, and others have occasionally tried to abolish it, the seven-day week has stood the test of time.[1]

But what do we know about the origins of this seven-day cycle? When and how did communities in ancient Israel and Judah come to embrace the practice of ceasing from their labors on Shabbat? And why did the biblical authors make this day a central feature of Israel’s national identity?[2] In exploring this issue, it is crucial to examine the relevant texts separately, rather than assuming that all relate to the same institution and practices.

New Moon and Then Shabbat

A number of early biblical texts, both from the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah, refer to Shabbat in tandem with the celebration of the New Moon (chodesh). Thus in one of the Elisha legends from the book of Kings, a woman orders her husband to provide her with a servant and donkey so that she could travel to “the man of God” at Mount Carmel. The husband voices a concern:

מלכים ב ד:כג וַיֹּאמֶר מַדּוּעַ אתי הלכתי [אַתְּ הֹלֶכֶת] אֵלָיו הַיּוֹם לֹא חֹדֶשׁ וְלֹא שַׁבָּת וַתֹּאמֶר שָׁלוֹם.

2 Kgs 4:23 Why would you go to him today? It is neither New Moon or Shabbat. She answered, “It’s all right.”

Despite her husband’s protestations, the woman answers with “shalom,” saddles the donkey, and heads out with a servant.[3] Notice here how the husband, in his response, places Shabbat after New Moon and identifies both of these occasions as times when one would customarily visit a seer or prophet.

A number of other older biblical texts follow this one in pairing New Moon and Shabbat, and placing Shabbat after New Moon.[4]

Hosea

הושע ב:יג וְהִשְׁבַּתִּי כָּל מְשׂוֹשָׂהּ חַגָּהּ חָדְשָׁהּ וְשַׁבַּתָּהּ וְכֹל מוֹעֲדָהּ

Hos 2:13 I will put an end to (ve-hishbati) to all her mirth, her festival, her New Moon, her Shabbat, and all her festal assemblies.

Isaiah

ישעיהו א:יג לֹא תוֹסִיפוּ הָבִיא מִנְחַת שָׁוְא קְטֹרֶת תּוֹעֵבָה הִיא לִי חֹדֶשׁ וְשַׁבָּת קְרֹא מִקְרָא לֹא אוּכַל אָוֶן וַעֲצָרָה. א:יד חָדְשֵׁיכֶם וּמוֹעֲדֵיכֶם שָׂנְאָה נַפְשִׁי הָיוּ עָלַי לָטֹרַח נִלְאֵיתִי נְשֹׂא.

Isa 1:13 Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to me. New Moon and Shabbat, the calling of assemblies–I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. 1:14 I hate your New Moon and your festal assemblies, They have become a burden to me.

Amos

עמוס ח:ד שִׁמְעוּ זֹאת הַשֹּׁאֲפִים אֶבְיוֹן וְלַשְׁבִּית ענוי [עֲנִיֵּי] אָרֶץ. ח:ה לֵאמֹר מָתַי יַעֲבֹר הַחֹדֶשׁ וְנַשְׁבִּירָה שֶּׁבֶר וְהַשַּׁבָּת וְנִפְתְּחָה בָּר לְהַקְטִין אֵיפָה וּלְהַגְדִּיל שֶׁקֶל וּלְעַוֵּת מֹאזְנֵי מִרְמָה. ח:ו לִקְנוֹת בַּכֶּסֶף דַּלִּים וְאֶבְיוֹן בַּעֲבוּר נַעֲלָיִם וּמַפַּל בַּר נַשְׁבִּיר.

Amos 8:4 Hear this, you who trample the needy, to do away with the humble of the land, 8:5 saying, “When will the New Moon be over, So that we may sell grain, And Shabbat, that we may open the wheat market, To make the bushel smaller and the shekel bigger, And to cheat with dishonest scales, 8:6 So as to buy the helpless for money And the needy for a pair of sandals.

Shabbat of Full Moon

If, in all these cases, Shabbat refers to the seventh day of the week, the order of Shabbat after New Moon would be odd. Biblical authors usually begin with what occurs more frequently. Such is precisely what we find in late post-exilic texts, for example Nehemiah 10:34: “… for the Shabbats, and for the New Moons, and for the Appointed Festivals.”[5] In these late texts, Shabbat refers to the seventh day of the week, so it comes before New Moon, which occurs every month, and is followed by the Appointed Festivals that are celebrated once a year. In the earlier texts, however, Shabbat appears to refer not to a day of the week but rather to a lunar phase. Just as chodesh refers to the new moon (compare chadash for “new”), the wordshabbat, which follows chodesh in these texts, would seem to designate what we call “full moon.”[6]

What this means is that for much of Israel’s history before the exile (before 586 BCE), Shabbat would have been celebrated just once a month, about fifteen days after the new-moon observance. During these two lunar phases, communities paused from their quotidian labors in order to engage in cultic activities. Offerings and sacrifices were offered to the deity, followed by sumptuous feasts.

These were also auspicious times to consult oracles, which explains why, in the text from Kings examined above, the husband wonders why his wife would make the trek to a prophet when it was not yet New Moon or Shabbat. Similarly, many other older texts refer to cultic activities (offerings being made and regular business ceasing) on this full-moon Shabbat.[7]

The Full Moon

Full Moon is an important time in many cultures. Thirteen major Hindu festivals began at this propitious time each month of the year. Throughout the ancient Near East, the fifteenth of month was a time for ritual celebrations. A number of Jewish festivals (Sukkot, Pesach, Purim, Tu BiShvat, Tu B’Av) begin fifteen days after New Moon.[8] The choice to begin these festivals on this date must have had something to do with the full moon.

So if originally Shabbat was celebrated once a month, on Full Moon, how did it come to designate the culmination of a seven-day week?

The Number Seven

The number seven has symbolic meanings in a wide array of ancient texts that existed long before the first biblical writings. Thus, when the Southern Mesopotamian ruler Gudea builds a temple, he dedicates it for seven days.[9] (The account may provide the rationale for an annual festival.) In the flood account from the Ninevite version of the Gilgamesh Epic, the number seven plays a special role.[10] When Enkidu dies, Gilgamesh mourns for six days and seven nights. Similarly, when the royal mother of Neo-Babylonian ruler Nabonidus dies, she is mourned for seven days and nights, parallel to seven-day periods of mourning known after the death of King Shulgi of Ur and after the Guteans invade Nippur.[11]

In epic literature from the Syrian kingdom of Ugarit, many rituals last seven days—not only mourning but also feasting.[12] In southern Anatolian and northern Mesopotamian places (such as Emar and Mari), as well as throughout southern Mesopotamia, a number of feasts, rituals, and other symbolic events are conducted for seven days. Thus, the hero Kirta, from the Ugaritic legend, undertakes a voyage as part of a military campaign that lasts seven days.[13] In Egypt too, the number seven assumed symbolic significance, likely due to foreign influence; it was often linked to creation and regeneration.[14] Even in Homeric literature, which partakes in some aspects of broader Mediterranean culture, feasts are often celebrated for seven days.[15]

Seven in the Bible

In the Bible, we can identify a broad array of activities that continue for seven days, months, or years. Many of them are ceremonial or commemorative in nature, just as we witnessed in the non-biblical evidence. They include mourning (“shiva”), feasts, weddings, temple dedications, and voyages.[16]

On the basis of this comparative evidence, we can be certain that the societies of Israel and Judah would have attached special meaning to the number seven from an early point in their histories. The question is: How did this symbolic number come to be identified with Shabbat, and when did a seven-day week become one of most basic ways of ordering time?

The Oldest Requirements for Seventh-Day Rest

Even though many activities lasted seven days in neighboring cultures, we do not find a regular weekly cycle during which one refrained from labor on the seventh day or regarded this day as sacred in some way. The closest we get to this notion is the Egyptian week. It lasted, however, ten days, not seven.[17]

Two biblical regulations in Exodus demand a pause after six days of labor, yet they originally had nothing to do with Shabbat. The first is found in a passage that most scholars assign to an older portion of the book, the so-called Covenant Code or Collection:

שמות כג:יב שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲשֶׂה מַעֲשֶׂיךָ וּבַיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי תִּשְׁבֹּת לְמַעַן יָנוּחַ שׁוֹרְךָ וַחֲמֹרֶךָ וְיִנָּפֵשׁ בֶּן אֲמָתְךָ וְהַגֵּר.

Exod 23:12 Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall cease, so that your ox and your donkey may have relief, and the son of your maidservant and the resident alien may be refreshed.

שמות לד:כא שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲבֹד וּבַיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי תִּשְׁבֹּת בֶּחָרִישׁ וּבַקָּצִיר תִּשְׁבֹּת.

Exod 34:21 Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall cease; even in plowing time and in harvest time you shall rest.

The passage in 23:12 concerns farming activities, and it assumes that the addressees will have work-animals, home-born servants, and non-native residents to perform the most arduous fieldwork. The landowners are required to grant a pause every seven days so that their animals will have some “relief” and their laborers will be “refreshed”—something that would ultimately be in their own interest as well. This guideline is preceded directly by another statute related to shemitta or release of the land:

שמות כג:י וְשֵׁשׁ שָׁנִים תִּזְרַע אֶת אַרְצֶךָ וְאָסַפְתָּ אֶת תְּבוּאָתָהּ. כג:יא וְהַשְּׁבִיעִת תִּשְׁמְטֶנָּה וּנְטַשְׁתָּהּ וְאָכְלוּ אֶבְיֹנֵי עַמֶּךָ וְיִתְרָם תֹּאכַל חַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה כֵּן תַּעֲשֶׂה לְכַרְמְךָ לְזֵיתֶךָ.

Exod 23:10 Six years you shall sow your land and gather its yield, 23:11 but the seventh year you let it rest and lie still so that the poor of your people may eat; what they leave, the beasts of the field shall eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and olive grove.

The two laws share a similar ethical concern for both the disadvantaged and animals.[18] They are also structured analogously: six days/years + seventh day/year.

The second statute cited above (34:21) appears to presuppose the first one (23:12); if so, it would have been composed at a later time. It expands the purview of the older law by using a more general verb for work (ta’avod) and demanding that day of rest be granted even during critical periods when the fields had to be plowed or the crops harvested. This observation has direct implications for the history of Torah law.[19]

These two laws in Exodus 23 and 34 significantly do not call the seventh day “Shabbat,” which would make sense if Shabbat originally designated a lunar phase and had nothing to do with a weekly cycle. (The verb tishbot is unrelated to the noun Shabbat; see part two of this article.)

Another observation is equally important: These laws do not require communities to cease from particular activities on the same seventh day—in other words, they need not agree on a common fixed point in time from which all members of society collectively count the same seven days. What is required is that the Israelite landowner ceases from his labors every seventh day (whenever he chooses to begin the cycle) so that the animals and the humans in his employ have a regular respite from their travails.[20] Given the explicit motivation for this law, there is no reason that all members of society should cease from their various activities on the same day.

Summary: Two Separate Institutions

The texts explored above suggest that the populations of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah commemorated a Chodesh-Shabbat monthly cycle that revolved around the antipodes of New Moon and Full Moon. An unrelated legal statute required landowners to grant their workers and animals a rest every seven days. The former institution was communal and cultic, with the population celebrating collectively the same days. The latter was personal and ethical, and would be initiated by each landowner independently. This mandated day of rest was not yet called Shabbat. At this early stage in the development of the calendar, a standard seven-day week did not exist and Shabbat referred to the celebration of Full Moon.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

KalebOutWest

My trip resumes today. I will be out of range for quite some time. All my best.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

KalebOutWest

What I often tell students is there is one question just as important as "What is true?" And that is: "Why are you asking?"

While most of what we understand about the authors of Scripture is based on critical theory and thus subject to change as we gather more data and understand it better, we do have a clear conclusions made by sound methodology and agreed consensus.

In Judaism we have something called "argument for the sake of heaven" meaning debate between sages for the sake of finding a right answer or solution. There is also "argument for sake of victory" which one does with an opponent just to win a battle for the sake of pride.

When there are sound answers based on sound, proven critical methods, one should employ them. If one does not trust them, one should learn the methods used to arrive at the answers. Many scholars and academics over many generations often worked hard to arrive at finding the solution they have provided, 'arguing for the sake of heaven,' so to speak.

But one cannot come to a solution on their own. A critical answer is not a critical answer if it is not tested by independent and disinterested parties and then the work approved and accepted by consensus. Otherwise it is just a personal opinion. When you stick to this view and worse, try to promote it view debate, it is an "argument for the sake of pride."

There are many possible solutions to who wrote Daniel but there is also a general consensus on the matter based on a very sound critical methodology. In fact, there is almost no tradition whatsoever used for Daniel's authorship. It comes from Judaism and is highly critical of both the religion, the history of my people, and the history of the Hasmoneans themselves.

For many exJWs this is not easy. Trust in authority is not something they are likely to do a second time in life, even if it comes from a "trusted source," or especially if it comes from a so called "authorized" source. Most I've talked to from the Watchtower do not avail themselves of mainstream materials but cling to something or more often someone with a particular unique idea. They seem to identify with the independent over the learned, and I don't blame them when the Governing Body lied to them by claiming they were learned and authorized though they were neither.

Also learning the various methods is not something that is simple without personal experience. Sometimes taught in primary educational systems, it usually isn't found until secondary, and most Jehovah's Witnesses aren't ever taught how it is done, especially in reference to Biblical studies.

Instead of inventing the wheel, I can only offer the advice of finding out for yourself why you are searching for answers that already have a consensus. Why are you not satisfied with what is out there? If it is because you are a learned scholar, I understand. But you would not be here. Academics don't learn in a vacuum. Scholars have jobs with schools and academies, etc. You learn with other academics.

Only you you can answer this question. You can't find the answers you need until this one gets settled.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

KalebOutWest

I have been approached by several scholars of now popular, mainstream Bible translations who had questions about how everyday liturgical Hebrew users employ certain things. I got a chance to ask them how they settle things when they "favor" one view over another.

For the most part, they agreed to always do the same thing. Do the most painful, and follow the data of someone who checks your methodology for bugs. If your method is solid and your conclusion has support, that is what you "favor."

But never go with your gut. Don't follow your belief system. Don't choose what you like. Reject what sounds novel. If someone checks your method and says, "Sorry kid, do it again..." Well, it doesn't feel good, but you got to let it go.

When in doubt, throw it out. If it's right, there'll be light.

"I don't know" is also a correct answer.

271

VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

by jwposter in

in my studies, i have concluded that year 530 bc was when the destruction of jerusalem occurred and the temple destroyed.

i had determined this prior to investigation of vat4956.

i had already found that the jubilees, sabbaticals, courses of the priests, and chronology attested to this.

KalebOutWest

Scholar,

And all I asked is why you can't read Hebrew?

271

VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

by jwposter in

in my studies, i have concluded that year 530 bc was when the destruction of jerusalem occurred and the temple destroyed.

i had determined this prior to investigation of vat4956.

i had already found that the jubilees, sabbaticals, courses of the priests, and chronology attested to this.

KalebOutWest

Why should I, a Jew, whose third language is English, translate a paper from years and years ago out of the language it was primarily written?

Can't you read Hebrew? I can speak English. And several other languages as well as sign in two different forms of sign language.

If you are a scholar, why do you need anything translated for you?

271

VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar

by jwposter in

in my studies, i have concluded that year 530 bc was when the destruction of jerusalem occurred and the temple destroyed.

i had determined this prior to investigation of vat4956.

i had already found that the jubilees, sabbaticals, courses of the priests, and chronology attested to this.

KalebOutWest

Scholar,

You would like me to post a dissertation of 270+ pages that is written Hebrew here?

Jewish culteral studies, bubbale. That was some time ago in Tel Aviv. What on earth do you want with that old thing? Do you even know what is on it?