Rattigan...Do you mean the JW doctrine you were taught to believe or those of 100 years ago? How about the doctrine of 100 years from now? Is it maybe possible that your determined viewpoint was influenced by your time with the JWs?
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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8
Bathwater
by peacefulpete inmany who have become disillusioned by some particular recent wt offence, separate from the church physically but retain the indoctrination the wt installed in their brains.
a familiar trope is often used,.
"don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!".
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Bathwater
by peacefulpete inmany who have become disillusioned by some particular recent wt offence, separate from the church physically but retain the indoctrination the wt installed in their brains.
a familiar trope is often used,.
"don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!".
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peacefulpete
Many who have become disillusioned by some particular recent WT offence, separate from the church physically but retain the indoctrination the WT installed in their brains. A familiar trope is often used,
"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!"
Implying that the interpretative belief system that identifies the church might be worth holding even if the people that created it are unworthy of allegiance. In fact, I have concluded after 22 years on this forum that this might be the default position for a majority of those leaving. Maybe it's natural. Maybe it's rationally defensible given the situation. Maybe it's just an understandable first step in a longer process.
A lot seems to depend on the whys and hows of a person's exit. Someone who suddenly finds themselves outside the church against their will, is surely more likely to cling to the past than someone who leaves tired of intellectual dissonance. Be that as it may, people leave for many reasons, the question now is:
"How much was bathwater?"
I'll ask this. Can a person really say they left the control of the WT if they presume most of what they said was accurate? For groups like the JWs, control is not necessarily physical, but intellectual and emotional. Therefore, the control might be a lifelong sentence if a person never challenges every aspect of the indoctrination they experienced.
Questions such as, "How do I measure my worth?, How do I measure the worth of others? How do I live a purposeful life?" These require a fresh examination. In the church, the answers were simple, obedience to the church.
The answers to other pragmatic questions such as: "Do I believe the future is a potential or a predetermined outcome?", will have great effect on your choices. An exiting JW's answer to that question is likely determined by their conclusions about the Bible or other forms of soothsaying.
Bathwater can be mirky and difficult to peer through. We might be trepid about dumping it. Perhaps the wise course is to pour off the water little at a time. If we get to the bottom and find it was bathwater all the way, we have lost nothing but an imaginary baby.
Real "babies" (causes, and people) can now have our much-needed attention.
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We’re getting out.
by MissDaSilva inbeen in for 20 plus years but decided to get out with my son.
can’t do this anymore.
never seen such hypocrisy and clickyness anywhere else.
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peacefulpete
Take some time to breath. Be resolved not to make new commitments for some time. Be willing to question everything. Seek good research not just search results. Leaving a high control community like the JWs is not a small thing yet millions have done it successfully, in fact billions have left other similar churches and belief systems. That is a singularly important epiphany to make. You are not alone and the JWs are not unique.
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The 'Tower has no Face
by NotFormer injust thinking about how the wt has evolved over the century of its existence.
before the gb tricked knorr into making them the ones responsible for everything, the president at the time was very much the face of the society.
after franz, it all became a bit nebulous as to who was in charge.. is the current situation more advantageous to the wt or less?.
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peacefulpete
Magnum, I concur that it's seemingly difficult to have a cult without a cult leader. But, however counterintuitive it might seem, the shift toward idolization of "Jehovah's Organization (tm)" has probably ensured the group will survive a long time. Group loyalty can be as cultlike as that directed toward a person.
I wish I could agree that in the Information Age, controlling minds and loyalties is more difficult. It hasn't proven to be the case. Vested people simply shun opinions or facts that threaten their beliefs, or even better interpret them as persecution. We know that better than most people as we did it for years. Recent posts on this site by well-intentioned believing posters demonstrate that well.
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Gods on Paper and Stage
by peacefulpete inwere the works of homer, aeschylus, sophocles, etc.
acting blasphemously when creating their works of fiction because they included the gods in the stories?
when homer placed dialog into athena's mouth, was he wrong to use his creativity to make her come alive for an audience?
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peacefulpete
From the preview alone I see his argument. From the standpoint of a ruler in the age of emperor cults, a form of Christianity that proclaimed a present age of divine goodwill would be preferable to one that despised the present world and wished for it's extinction. Hard to govern or elicit civic mindedness from detached Gnostics and apocalypse obsessed Christians.
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Gods on Paper and Stage
by peacefulpete inwere the works of homer, aeschylus, sophocles, etc.
acting blasphemously when creating their works of fiction because they included the gods in the stories?
when homer placed dialog into athena's mouth, was he wrong to use his creativity to make her come alive for an audience?
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peacefulpete
I'll check it out.
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The ''dreaded'' birthday cake
by RULES & REGULATIONS inthe watchtower—study edition | september 2023. study article 39. let mildness be your strength.
11 if a workmate asks, for example, why we do not celebrate birthdays, consider: could he be wondering whether we are allowed to have a good time?
or might he feel that our position will dampen the company’s team spirit?
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peacefulpete
Gen 21:8 The child [Isaac] grew and was [a]weaned, and Abraham held a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned.
So ask your mom when she cut you off the teat and celebrate that day each year!
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The ''dreaded'' birthday cake
by RULES & REGULATIONS inthe watchtower—study edition | september 2023. study article 39. let mildness be your strength.
11 if a workmate asks, for example, why we do not celebrate birthdays, consider: could he be wondering whether we are allowed to have a good time?
or might he feel that our position will dampen the company’s team spirit?
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peacefulpete
BTW Herod Antipas was definitely a worshiper of Yahweh. It was his father who built the temple for crying out loud! Antipas (4th generation convert to Judaism) himself kept the Jewish purity laws and such. That is the reason the Gospels give for his being rebuked by John the Baptist! JTB does not condemn the birthday nor do the writers of the Gospels. What was condemned was that, as a practicer of Judaism, he ought not have taken his brother's wife who was still alive. (lev 20:21 and 18:16).
If anything, this story demonstrates that some worshipers of Yahweh did celebrate birthdays and were not condemned for it.
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Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death
by peacefulpete init might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).
first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".
this herod is described mark 6:.
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peacefulpete
As an additional side note, the Gospel John does not mention JTB's death at all. However, the timeline in John distinctly contradicts the other timelines in the Synoptics. In G. John (chapter 3) JTB is depicted as flourishing and outspokenly endorsing Jesus as the Messiah after Jesus returns from Galilee, having fled there after the arrest of JTB according to Matt. This rather glaring chronological problem was observed long ago.
Note verse 24.
22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized.24 (This was before John was put in prison.)
25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing.
This obvious addition (vs 24) within the text doesn't actually address the issue but simply brushes it aside for the casual reader.
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Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death
by peacefulpete init might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).
first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".
this herod is described mark 6:.
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peacefulpete
Now regarding the Mandean (Nazorean) version of the death of their greatest prophet. John is made to flee the anger of religious leaders from Palestine to the east. Later after 42 years of baptizing he is approached by a child who is a spirit. He leaves his body, which becomes one with the waters and ascends to the light.
The Death of John (Yahya) in Mandaean tradition is an ascent to Heaven, not unlike that which some Christians had claimed for their founder. It exists in several versions, which differ (among other things) in the degree of reluctance John shows at leaving his body. In the right-hand volume of the Ginza Rba (“Great Treasure”), which seems to be the earliest of several versions, this concern does appear:
Ginza Rba 5:4, 192-193. Then Manda d’Hayyi said to John, When I put my hand on you, you will depart from your body. John said to Manda d’Hayyi, I have seen you; now I will no longer be here. I have seen and reached you; now I beseech thee in truth. Do not curse me away from you, from the place from which you have come. Prepare me and give me instructions for the great place to which you are going. Have mercy upon me, and reveal to me the mysteries of the kings, about the Great Fruit of the Light, about the anvils and fruits of the Earth, against which they are pressed, about the anvils of the water, against which the living fire spreads, where the Life resides, which is earlier and greater than any other. [Manda d’Hayyi] undressed him from his clothes in the Jordan, he removed him from his garment of flesh and blood, he clothed him in a robe of splendor and covered him with a good pure turban of light. Manda d’Hayyi continued on his way to the place which is entirely aglow, to the place which is entirely light, and John went with him. The fish out of the sea and the birds of the two shores of the ocean rallied over the body of John and covered him. When John saw his body, he was troubled about it.
The Mandaean Death of John Charles G Häberl Rutgers University