I immediately thought your handle should be Jack Handey.
Deep Thoughts: Mankind - Saturday Night Live - Bing video
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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27
deep thoughts
by lancelink inthis afternoon i drove by an old hall i attended ( barrington illinois) and noticed that it had been sold, it is now an adventist .
church !
now here is my drive-home thinking.. back in the 80's when i attended i was newly married, and had a young child.
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peacefulpete
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The Lost Qos
by peacefulpete inthe names of the gods of palestine and surrounding regions are known to most of us only through the condemnations of the ot writers.
baal peor, hadad, chemosh, molech/milkom dagon, etc.
it is therefore surprising that the main deity of the sister nation to the south, edom is never mentioned.
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peacefulpete
EdenOne..What you described pretty well sums up the classic position. One of the slight refinements proposed are that worshippers of YH/YHWH might have from earliest times been regarded as somewhat exclusivist, as was apparently the case among metallurgists in neighboring cultures. This might explain the trend toward monolatry as well as the profuse copper associations. As the cult was introduced to a wider audience through commerce, naturally local forms evolved. Hence in time "Yahweh of Samaria" and "Yahweh of Teman" and Qos became separate yet homologous identities.
Amzallag goes so far as to link the metallurgist deity to those of other bronze age cultures such as Egypt and Elam to explain passages like (Jer. 49.37-39) which promises to restore Elam (whose chief god Napir was a metallurgist) after a period of punishment and (Isa. 19.22 and Ezek. 29.13-14) that says the same about Egypt (specifically Noph which was founded by metal crafter Ptah). IOW in the minds of some Yahwists, these people all worshipped the same god known by different names.(Napir and Ptah) and therefore Yahweh had vested interests in the fate of those people as well.
No doubt the work of syncretism and substitution resulted in conflation of Yahweh with indigenous Canaanite deities like El and Baal, but the supposition that Yahweh was regarded a son of El in earliest times is being challenged. Often Deut 32 is cited as support for this, however according to the most recent proposals, Deut 32 is a preYahwist model of El (as Father of the gods) being utilized to account for the Yahwist's monolatrous worship of an imported deity. He is "slipped in" as one of the gods under El and assigned to Israel. It is a snapshot in time, a very short time, when he was explained as one of the gods of the Canaanite pantheon of El, but at the same time the only designated deity of Israel. Yahweh's absence from Ugarit deity lists belies this however. It was an artificial attempt to domesticate Yahweh. In reality, his existence requires we look outside Canaan, and the evidence points south.
llubrevlis2000....Well, you have a point that the demons and angels of later (second temple) Judaism were in fact the gods of the earlier polytheistic times of Canaan. This is a conscious result of monotheistic reforms. The second temple keepers of the Yahwist cult recast the one-time rival gods into subordinate spirits, angels (messengers) and demons (ironically 'daimon' Greek for lesser deity).
It is also ironic that the reverse began to happen in late antiquity with 'arch'angels becoming more godlike nearly returning to a polytheism of sorts. Corollary to this was the hypostatic conceptions of a 'son of God", 'son of Man' and 'Wisdom' character that substantially equated God with a second figure that eventuated in Christianity.
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The Lost Qos
by peacefulpete inthe names of the gods of palestine and surrounding regions are known to most of us only through the condemnations of the ot writers.
baal peor, hadad, chemosh, molech/milkom dagon, etc.
it is therefore surprising that the main deity of the sister nation to the south, edom is never mentioned.
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peacefulpete
Wonderful, glad someone read it.
EdenOne,,I'm cautious of assuming any of the Moses narrative is historical but like you said it contains elements that may be. While a number of historical persons have been proposed to have inspired the Egyptian Moses character and name (unsurprising given the Egyptian hegemony over Palestine), his function in Exodus seems to be to tie together a number of narrative traditions. Some of those traditions were that YHWH was from the south. Recall the Abraham stories locate him to the north of Israel and he only knows El Shaddai. It's a complicated process of merging traditions, some of which occurred when Israel's priests fled the Assyrians but most of this blending took place during the Persian period.
I find the article connecting Yah/Yahweh with the copper guilds to be pretty intriguing. While some of the author's arguments are not as conclusive as he suggests, the sheer number of clues becomes persuasive. I know there is a paywall without a university connection, but if someone wants I can share some of it. I just thought it was a bit wide of the Qos discussion.
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Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body
by WingCommander inthis has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.
this is not a joke.
anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!
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peacefulpete
OK, I found it. I think it's the second time I went on that site, didn't see the dropdown. Creepy to be on the site. Enough of that.
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The Lost Qos
by peacefulpete inthe names of the gods of palestine and surrounding regions are known to most of us only through the condemnations of the ot writers.
baal peor, hadad, chemosh, molech/milkom dagon, etc.
it is therefore surprising that the main deity of the sister nation to the south, edom is never mentioned.
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peacefulpete
Crickets
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773
Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body
by WingCommander inthis has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.
this is not a joke.
anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!
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peacefulpete
Just double checked, not there
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) About Jehovah’s Witnesses | JW.ORG.
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773
Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body
by WingCommander inthis has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.
this is not a joke.
anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!
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peacefulpete
There is no "Who Are the Members of the Governing Body" title. I'm assuming it was removed.
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773
Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body
by WingCommander inthis has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.
this is not a joke.
anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!
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peacefulpete
Are we sure it wasn't just a hacker? It looks like someone playing games to me.
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773
Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body
by WingCommander inthis has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.
this is not a joke.
anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!
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peacefulpete
The Pope resigned, why not a GB.
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16
The Lost Qos
by peacefulpete inthe names of the gods of palestine and surrounding regions are known to most of us only through the condemnations of the ot writers.
baal peor, hadad, chemosh, molech/milkom dagon, etc.
it is therefore surprising that the main deity of the sister nation to the south, edom is never mentioned.
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peacefulpete
The names of the gods of Palestine and surrounding regions are known to most of us only through the condemnations of the OT writers. Baal Peor, Hadad, Chemosh, Molech/Milkom Dagon, etc. It is therefore surprising that the main deity of the sister nation to the south, Edom is never mentioned. His name was Qos or Qaus. Many accept the name means "bow" as in the weapon. (or rainbow) As usual this is a large topic and this is a brief summary.
WIKI: Qos (Edomite: 𐤒𐤅𐤎 Qāws, later Qôs;[1] Hebrew: קוֹס Qōs)[2] also Qaus (Akkadian: 𒋡𒍑 Qa-uš), or Koze (Greek: Kωζαι Kōzai) was the national god of the Edomites.[3] He was the Idumean structural parallel to Yahweh. The name occurs only twice in the Old Testament in the Book of Ezra and Nehemiah as an element in a personal name, Barqos ("son of Qos" (or Qos beams forth) referring to the 'father' of a family or clan of perhaps Edomite/Idumaean nəṯīnīm or temple helpers returning from the Babylonian exile.[6][7]
I had a thread earlier regarding the Nethinim as foreign Temple servants that left us with lots of questions. Here I'm taking special focus on the Edomite name of a Nethinim with a Qos theophoric element. So clearly the writers of the OT knew the name Qos. This then makes the lack of condemnation of the God difficult to explain.
Notice in the Wiki quote, it says he was the Idumean (later term for region called Edom) "structural parallel to Yahweh." It further comments:
Unlike the chief god of the Ammonites (Milcom) and the Moabites (Chemosh), the Tanakh refrains from explicitly naming the Edomite Qōs.[6][16] The omission may be explained, according to some scholars, by assuming there were close similarities between Yahweh with Qōs, that would have made rejection of the latter difficult.[8]
You know all this is related back to the Kennite hypothesis that assumes OT passages that describe YHWH (Yah) as having come from Edom/Seir reflect an accurate mnemonic history and is confirmed by a number of extrabiblical inscriptions. In addition, we have the origin story of Jacob/Israel stealing the blessing from Esau/Edom which in light of the hypothesis, seems to be a suggestion that Edom should have been the chosen blessed nation.
To cut to the chase, there are a few theories regarding YaH's (Yah is likely the earlier form) relationship with Qos. One well argued position is that when Yah's worship relocated to Judah, Qos was adopted to replace him to affirm national identity apart from Judah. However it seems to me another scholarly proposal is less complicated and fits the evidence better. Namely that they are the same deity, Qos being an epithet for Yah.
A promising proposed solution to the difficult passage at Prov 30:29 might lend some credence to this:
There are three that are stately of stride, four that carry themselves well:30:30 The lion is mightiest among the beasts, and recoils before none; 30:31 The greyhound, the he-goat, the king whom (none dares resist).
The last phrase is very difficult, and some other translations are “and the king when he harangues his people” (NJB) and “and a king whose troops are with him” (NKJV).king secure against revolt (NIV) and the king, against whom there is no rising up.(ERV)and the king at the head of his people (NAB) etc.
Given the graphic similarity between the final mem and samekh, Theodor Vriezen suggested long ago reading ומלך אל קוס עמו “and the king with whom the god Qos is.”[17] The original meaning—perhaps the proverb itself originated in an Edomite context—was lost either because of Judean objections to referencing this deity positively or out of a later scribes’ ignorance of the meaning of Qos.
Additionally there are a number of other names in the OT that have theophoric elements related to this discussion, such as:
Kushaiah (קושיהו)— father of Ethan, a Merarite Levite who accompanies the ark of God on its return to Jerusalem (1 Chr 15:17).[11] The name may include both the theophoric element Qos[12] as well as YHWH, perhaps reflecting a syncretistic “Qaus is YHWH.”[13]
The mention of a number of Edomites serving both at the Temple and in the military might suggest a religious conversion but it might also suggest simply that as Edomites they simply worshipped the same god by a different name.
Anyway, I'm hoping this might inspire some interest. Take a few hours and read some of the links and citations. Sorry about the messy formatting. I'm watching TV at the same time. LOL
Amzallag, N. (2009). Yahweh, the Canaanite God of Metallurgy? Journal for the Study of the Old Testament, 33(4), 387–404. https://doi.org/10.1177/0309089209105686
‘Yahweh in Israel—Qaus in Edom?’, JSOT 4 (1977), pp. 28-34.
Edom’s God Qos is the Hebrew God Yhwh | Arabian Prophets
Why the Bible Is Mute about Qos, the Edomite God - TheTorah.com
God Under Another Name?| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)