Posts by peacefulpete

92

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

An interesting crossover with another recent thread discussing Micah 6:8 and the word 'chesed'. Verses 6-7 describe the potential offerings to be made to Yahweh. Included is his firstborn son.

With what shall I come before the Lord
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of olive oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly[a] with your God.

Here the writer at least makes acknowledgement of the idea of sacrificing the firstborn. Dating the work is notoriously difficult. It may retain elements from an 8th century prophet, however if so, the failed predictions were revived and reworked during the 6th/5th century. So, while the author of the passage above seems, like Ezekiel and other prophets, to disparage the idea of making sacrifices in favor of acts of loyalty/kindness, the mention of the sacrifice of the firstborn as a sin offering betrays the historical realities.

13

Loyalty to the Governing Body? Timeline to Change

by blondie in

jw
friends

https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/governing-body.php .

here is an example how the wts has "adjusted" scripture.

the governing body has gone as far as to change the text of micah 6:8 in their 2013 new world translation of the holy scriptures (nwt) in order to be able to demand loyalty.

peacefulpete

I see I hadn't completed my comment earlier. The Hebrew 'chesed' (and its Aramaic cognate) had over time taken on broader meaning, allowing for the LXX translation and fresh interpretations (such as the Gospel and Rabbinic use) along with it. This doesn't suggest 'loyalty' or 'loyal love' is incorrect, it might be closer to the intended meaning in context. It does illustrate the under appreciated, but inevitable, role translating plays in shaping theology, not just recording it.

13

Loyalty to the Governing Body? Timeline to Change

by blondie in

jw
friends

https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/governing-body.php .

here is an example how the wts has "adjusted" scripture.

the governing body has gone as far as to change the text of micah 6:8 in their 2013 new world translation of the holy scriptures (nwt) in order to be able to demand loyalty.

peacefulpete

"Once as Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai was coming forth from Jerusalem, Rabbi Joshua followed after him and beheld the Temple in ruins. "Woe unto us!" Rabbi Joshua said, "that this, the place where the iniquities of Israel were atoned for, is laid waste!" "My son, " Rabbi Yohannan said, "be not grieved. We have another atonement as effective as this. And what is it? It is acts of loving kindness as it is said: 'For I desire mercy (chasda Aramaic) and not sacrifice.'" Aroth de Rabba Nathan, 6

13

Loyalty to the Governing Body? Timeline to Change

by blondie in

jw
friends

https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/governing-body.php .

here is an example how the wts has "adjusted" scripture.

the governing body has gone as far as to change the text of micah 6:8 in their 2013 new world translation of the holy scriptures (nwt) in order to be able to demand loyalty.

peacefulpete

As Vidqun's quotes demonstrate the Hebrew 'chesed' represents a variety of qualities associated with intimate relationships. The LXX used the Greek 'eleos' (mercy) for the word at Micah 6:8 and at the equally often quoted Hosea 6:6.

The writer of Matt 9:13 uses that LXX version of Hosea passage "I want mercy not sacrifice' as a proof text for the mercy/compassion Jesus shows sinners and the sick.

At Matt 12:7 the writer again uses the Hosea line to relegate ritual law to a secondary place to human need.

As Narkissos said years ago, the word is flexible enough in an ambiguous context to accommodate nearly any application featuring a 'good quality'.

70

Did the Fred Franz style of writing cease after he died?

by SydBarrett in

jw
friends

i was completely out by 1991 and 1989 would have been the last time i had to attend regularly.

that over the top franz writing style was still there in the 1980's although i've heard he wasn't actually doing much writing by then.

but his style was definitely picked up and imitated for many years beyond its wacky, outlandish peak of the the 50's - 70's.

peacefulpete

I have no doubt Fred was strongly leaned upon in earlier writings but when i was there, the Prince o' Peace book was said to have been his only exclusive work. I recall twice GB members complaining about the book. They had apparently not read it before the general lay folks did. I recall one (don't remember his name now) asking me in the elevator before breakfast what I thought of the book's speculation. I was silent obviously.

92

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Stories in law books aren't there with all their gruesome details to entertain the readers. They are there to demonstrate the reason for the laws or their application.

Well, I understood that line above to be clear enough. The stories were 'there to demonstrate (religious/national) laws'. That those laws were unique to a sect makes them sectarian laws. So my comment agreeing that there was a 'sectarian motive behind the stories' wasn't rooted in some dark hate for the Bible, it was agreeing with your comment. I don't know why you keep blowing up.

92

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Kaleb said, There is wisdom in every culture, and horrific and violent stories (and laws) in some other myths from other ancient people too.

Absolutely

Laws of Hammurabi:

LH 110 If a naditu (woman of priestly caste) who is an ugbabtu (i.e., a priestess) who does not reside within the cloister should open (the door to) a tavern or enter a tavern for some beer, they shall burn that woman.
LH 157 If a man, after his father’s death, should lie with his mother, they shall burn them both.

Martha T. Roth, Law Collections from Mesopotamia and Asia Minor, (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1997)

92

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Took the dog for a walk and thought some more about it. I imagine the tales/rhymes of horrific detail reflected the realities of the day. The plagues, the war, the poverty. A societal coping mechanism of sorts. Found this article:

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20150610-the-dark-side-of-nursery-rhymes

Would not the stories from the deeper past, in part, have served a similar function?

92

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Thankyou. I agree there might have been a more political/sectarian motive behind many Bible stories than for 'The Little Old Lady in a Shoe', at least as they were utilized by the compilers; and yet the use of narrative, rhythm, and imagery makes religious teachings more memorable and accessible, helping listeners internalize ideas and tribal values. Entertainment with a message....... The problem is the message. Sadly, as you said, surrounding timeless values of loyalty and valor, are images of genocide and intolerance. Many of the old nursery rhymes and stories were violent and horrific, as well. Wonder why.

92

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Kaleb, apart from the stories originating within your culture, how are these tales different from nursery rhymes like the Little Old Lady Who lived in a Shoe?

There was an old woman who lived in a shoe.

She had so many children, she didn't know what to do.

She gave them some broth without any bread;

And whipped them all soundly and put them to bed.

Here we have a story/poem about child neglect and abuse. Is there cultural value in this story? Does it remind us the value of family planning? Is it less or equal to stories of Abraham's abandonment of Hagar.

I am interested in your perspective.