Posts by peacefulpete

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Stories in law books aren't there with all their gruesome details to entertain the readers. They are there to demonstrate the reason for the laws or their application.

Well, I understood that line above to be clear enough. The stories were 'there to demonstrate (religious/national) laws'. That those laws were unique to a sect makes them sectarian laws. So my comment agreeing that there was a 'sectarian motive behind the stories' wasn't rooted in some dark hate for the Bible, it was agreeing with your comment. I don't know why you keep blowing up.

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Kaleb said, There is wisdom in every culture, and horrific and violent stories (and laws) in some other myths from other ancient people too.

Absolutely

Laws of Hammurabi:

LH 110 If a naditu (woman of priestly caste) who is an ugbabtu (i.e., a priestess) who does not reside within the cloister should open (the door to) a tavern or enter a tavern for some beer, they shall burn that woman.
LH 157 If a man, after his father’s death, should lie with his mother, they shall burn them both.

Martha T. Roth, Law Collections from Mesopotamia and Asia Minor, (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1997)

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Took the dog for a walk and thought some more about it. I imagine the tales/rhymes of horrific detail reflected the realities of the day. The plagues, the war, the poverty. A societal coping mechanism of sorts. Found this article:

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20150610-the-dark-side-of-nursery-rhymes

Would not the stories from the deeper past, in part, have served a similar function?

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Thankyou. I agree there might have been a more political/sectarian motive behind many Bible stories than for 'The Little Old Lady in a Shoe', at least as they were utilized by the compilers; and yet the use of narrative, rhythm, and imagery makes religious teachings more memorable and accessible, helping listeners internalize ideas and tribal values. Entertainment with a message....... The problem is the message. Sadly, as you said, surrounding timeless values of loyalty and valor, are images of genocide and intolerance. Many of the old nursery rhymes and stories were violent and horrific, as well. Wonder why.

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Kaleb, apart from the stories originating within your culture, how are these tales different from nursery rhymes like the Little Old Lady Who lived in a Shoe?

There was an old woman who lived in a shoe.

She had so many children, she didn't know what to do.

She gave them some broth without any bread;

And whipped them all soundly and put them to bed.

Here we have a story/poem about child neglect and abuse. Is there cultural value in this story? Does it remind us the value of family planning? Is it less or equal to stories of Abraham's abandonment of Hagar.

I am interested in your perspective.

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

To further illustrate how people's sense of decency and compassion can become derailed by religious zealotry, ancient Rabbis described/imagined the procedure for burning a person. Because the human is in God's "image" they felt it appropriate for the person to be burned from the inside.

R. Judah says: “Even he, if he died by their hand, they have not upheld the commandment of burning with respect to him. Rather, they should open his mouth with a pair of tongs against his will, and he lights the wick (later defined as molten lead) and throws it into his mouth, and it descends into his belly and burns his bowels.”
(b. Pesach. 75a; b. Sanh 7:2, 52a),

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Rattigan...What is ridiculous?

A human sacrifice for good of a community thru appeasement of a god? (John 18:14 "...it would be good if one man died for the people."

How about a god sending his people to war where many are killed? (Judges 20)

Are they not human sacrifices to please a god?

Or the burning alive members of the tribe that behave in unapproved manner?

Lev 21:9 As for the daughter of a priest who profanes herself with promiscuity (liznot): it is her father whom she defiles. She shall be burned with fire.
Lev 20:14 If a man marries a woman and her mother, it is lewdness; both he and they shall be burned with fire...

Are they not also human sacrifices for the appeasement of a god?

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

An interesting observation by Hyam Maccoby is that the Hebrew ha`avir, "to cause to pass through" used in Exodus 13:12 is always otherwise associated with fire sacrifices to other Palestinian gods. Yes, translators have masked that with inconsistent wording, but the point being Exodus 13 promoted a similar practice of sacrificing firstborns with a later editor inserting vs 13b that insisted firstborn humans were to be redeemed like asses.

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

Lev 27:28-9:

No devoted thing that a man devotes to the Lord, of anything that he has, whether man or beast, or of his inherited field, shall be sold or redeemed; every devoted thing is most holy to the Lord. No one devoted, to be destroyed from among men, shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

This is an example of a passage that did not get redacted by the 5th/6th century scribes. There is no provision for redeeming, present, in fact it is explicitly forbidden. Perhaps it was examples like this that left Ezekiel struggling for an explanation.

94

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

peacefulpete

In what is often called 'pre-Biblical' Israel, human sacrifice was practiced. Some stories and legends from that era (pre-6th century BCE) included it. It has been suggested that the process of redacting those stories was incomplete in the time of Ezekiel (Ez. 20:25-6) hence the then dispute over the versions of laws that demanded it vs those that had been redacted to forbid it. (Ex 13) What surprises me is stories such as 2 Kings 3 wherein the Moabite King sacrifices his son to turn back the Israelite army is successful at invoking 'wrath against Israel'. There must have been a scribal interpretation that allowed this to slip through.

Reformers such as Ezekiel, Ezra and Jeremiah balanced the appeal of antiquity of their worship of Yahweh with progressive sensitivities. This required retaining old traditions and stories in a slightly modified form. Those modifications are often easily recognized today using text-critical methods.

So, yes, the people of the region did human sacrifice, especially child sacrifice,(as well as goddess worship and bull iconography etc.) but by the time the traditions were being collected into longer historiographical narratives the practice was no longer approved by the leading priesthood.