It's been said recently, and it seems reasonable; they are building towards saying they are in the 'great tribulation '. They might be waiting for some trigger event to use. It solves their 1914 problem yet keeps the heat on.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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MANY DIFFICULT YEARS AHEAD : PER CHRISTENSEN
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/jsmbtv4nafi?si=ezj0dnudyjls4knc.
there was a time they preached the great tribulation was a short period of time between the fall of babylon and jesus coming back to save them, now they realize there are difficult years ahead of us, watch this latest morning worship video by per christensen on this subject .
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Did your witness family have a 'Thanksgiving' that wasn't on Thanksgiving?
by SydBarrett inmy family had several elders, ministerial servants, auxillary pioneers etc, so it certainly wasn't one of those 'barely in' families.
but in certain small ways, i think mine were slightly less hard line than some other families i've heard stories about over the years.
one example was the 'fall dinner'.
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peacefulpete
Same here. It would be a low impact, but welcome, change for church leadership to begin 'allowing' it's people to openly gather without the pretence.
Any small steps toward normalization would work for the psychological good. Maybe the next batch of masters.
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The boy who has cried wolf - for nearly 140 years!
by BoogerMan in"when will this hope be fulfilled?
the bible foretold events that would signal that god’s kingdom is about to begin its rule over the earth.
present world conditions match what the bible foretold.
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peacefulpete
Jesus clearly warned us that some people wolud predict things that would not come true. That makes them a false prophet.
You know who else that makes a 'false prophet'?
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.....Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
The writers who put the words above in the mouth of Jesus.
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The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity
by aqwsed12345 in1. the continuity and visibility of the church.
the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.
there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.
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peacefulpete
That generation was a moving target almost as soon as it was written.
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The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity
by aqwsed12345 in1. the continuity and visibility of the church.
the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.
there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.
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peacefulpete
Kerry....You might find better sources than me using a google search. Sadly so much is biased toward Christian tradition. The Jewish Encyclopedia, TheTorah.com and Wiki are always good places to start.
Jeffro, I understand what you are saying but when the full text doesn't fit 70CE very well, it's reasonable to consider alternatives. While I have agued that 'earthquakes' might just be standard apocalyptic motif, (e.g. Rev 6:12-14), if we are now assuming there was a physical earthquake, or series of them, that would have impressed the writer and readers, our best period is later. I haven't been able to locate any recorded (of course minor ones may not have been) earthquakes around 70. (Unless we count the two fictional ones slipped in Matthew)
There were a series of major ones from 98-132CE that everyone would have heard of.
And as I said, the empire wide wars during the second Jewish revolt would have been of incredible interest to the Judeo-Christian world. This is the kind of significant notoriety I would expect if we were assuming a literal meaning to these 'signs'. It's also worth considering whether what was originally boilerplate apocalypse language was understood literally by the next generation.
Also, the reference to preaching in 'all the nations' and the State sponsored oppression of Christians certainly better fits the period of Trajan and later. It's estimated there were only a few thousand Christians in the world by 70CE and they were centered in a few locations.
The oddest element that always disturbed me, which I mentioned before, is how, seeing the conquering Roman standards on the Temple mount could represent an opportunity to escape. It was far too late to escape. That's why the Lukan version is either an earlier form (70-130's) or the author saw the logical defect in Mark and Matt's timeline and changed 'abomination in the holy place' it to 'surrounding armies'. I'm inclined to favor Luke preserves an earlier form as we have other examples of Luke not including wording from Matt that otherwise are suspected later additions. (e.g. Matt 24:12) The Markan and Mattean language makes far more sense in the time of Hadrian. It was that act that triggered the war, hence depicting it after the fact as an opportunity to escape make sense.
It's then a possible solution for these details. Again, the parallels of the events surrounding Bar Kokhba and Judas Maccabeus, are pretty hard to miss. It would not be at all surprising if they inspired some refinements to the text.
It's all irrelevant to many, but it's an interesting puzzle for some.
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Child Sacrifice and Exodus 22:29
by joey jojo inim not a bible scholar - lets just get that out the way first.
i recently came across exodus 22:29, which is an interesting scripture that seems to require israelites to sacrifice their firstborn to god.. i searched this forum and cant seem to find any topic about it so i thought id start one and see what you guys think.
im sure it probably has been discussed here already, but i cant find it.. anyway, exodus 22:29 says:.
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peacefulpete
liam...I've often said religion is merely an enabler.
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Child Sacrifice and Exodus 22:29
by joey jojo inim not a bible scholar - lets just get that out the way first.
i recently came across exodus 22:29, which is an interesting scripture that seems to require israelites to sacrifice their firstborn to god.. i searched this forum and cant seem to find any topic about it so i thought id start one and see what you guys think.
im sure it probably has been discussed here already, but i cant find it.. anyway, exodus 22:29 says:.
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peacefulpete
87
Does Jehovah accept human sacrafice or not?
To be honest many of the comments I made and even some by Leolaia years ago show how are our own learning has progressed.
The core of the issue is understanding the way the OT was produced. It is a collection compiled by a 5th century BCE scribal committee (likely). Some of the collection reflects earlier religious practice, some of it is idealizations of a mythic past. Trying to divine which is which has occupied scholars for over a century. Generally, the 'argument from embarrassment' prevails, that is, material that would be embarrassing to a later redactor is assumed more ancient. That might not always be true, because author's do sometimes use archaizing language and scenes to give a work the look of antiquity. Also, if the author had a polemicizing agenda, he might well create a fictional storyline to make his point.
However, the general consensus is that isolated legends involving human sacrifice reflect a historical cult practice, given the archeological evidence of such practice (especially east of Jerusalem). It has been suggested the Abraham/Isaac story (Akedah) originally had Abraham successful in killing his son, but the change to the story with a substitution of a lamb/ram itself serves as an origin story of allowing substitution in some circumstances. This rite of child sacrifice continued in some parts of Canaan until Roman times. (they made it illegal)
The "Law" that forbid such sacrifice was a product of religious reformers of the 5th century, (though it is reasonable that at least elements of it predate that). They incorporated at least two earlier efforts at a code that differed rather extensively.
So....The present OT includes a number of stories involving human sacrifice (not just child). These at times appear to have been modified with awkward additions, (such as Jeptha) or edited (as with the Akedah) but other times shockingly left unchanged. (e.g. 2 Kings 3, King of Moab offers his son up and it works to repel the Israelite/Judahite coalition).
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Child Sacrifice and Exodus 22:29
by joey jojo inim not a bible scholar - lets just get that out the way first.
i recently came across exodus 22:29, which is an interesting scripture that seems to require israelites to sacrifice their firstborn to god.. i searched this forum and cant seem to find any topic about it so i thought id start one and see what you guys think.
im sure it probably has been discussed here already, but i cant find it.. anyway, exodus 22:29 says:.
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peacefulpete
Yes the search is poor. This topic has been discussed in depth. Being short of time, I'll just say the textual and archeological evidence points to human sacrifice being a part of Yahweh worship and not an aberration done by apostates. The OT texts as we have them today often betray a change in this regard. Some stories such as Abraham sacrificing his son and Jeptha doing the same had some clumsy efforts to modify the conclusions. Also, one of the origin stories for the Levites was as an alternative to offering up firstborn after the exodus. The idea of 'redeeming' a child with money is another example of history revisionism. Ezekiel 20 seems to offer another approach to the past; it was all a test or a drama to prove God's moral superiority.
BTW from an earlier comment I made:
"Something interesting is that in 7 of the 8 "Molech" mentions, the definite article precedes Molech, IOW, it likely refers to a particular sacrifice method not a god. The one instance where there is no definite article is 1Kings 11:7 and there the LXX has Milcom, suggesting the Masoretic is a scribal error. Many etymologies have been proposed but a new and persuasive one is simply a ProtoSemitic word for 'sacrifice'. In light of this "the Moloch" references were likely a child sacrifice to Yahweh, which later scribes deny was officially prescribed."
In the end the stories were collected with respect but harmonized somewhat to reflect 5th century BCE ideals.
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The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity
by aqwsed12345 in1. the continuity and visibility of the church.
the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.
there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.
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peacefulpete
Not that it is a terribly important matter but I wish to clarify what I meant in my last comment.
Daniel and it's companion text 1 Macc (5:54) describe Antiochus' setting up an idol in the Temple. This triggers a successful rebellion under the Maccabees. The idol is removed.
While Caligula intended to do the same his order is resisted by the Jews and delayed by Petronius, Caligula's death ends the matter. (Some have suggested this is the source of the 2 Thess Man of Lawlessness, which may be a snippet of confused Pauline material included in 2 Thess).
After another rebellion, 66-70 sees the destruction of much of the city including the Temple, Jews are banished from the city until 118CE.
Then around 130CE:
” At Jerusalem Hadrian founded a city in place of the one which had been razed to the ground, naming it Aelia Capitolina, and on the site of the temple of the god he raised a new temple to Jupiter. This brought on a war of no slight importance nor of brief duration, for the Jews deemed it intolerable that foreign races should be settled in their city and foreign religious rites planted there.”
– Cassius Dio, Roman History, 69.12.Note, this again triggers a revolt. The Bar Kokhba revolt is successful and begins the reestablishment of an independent Jewish state for about 3 years. Temple rebuilding was started during this time. Simon bar Koseva the leader of the revolt was given the title Kokhba (star) as he was hailed the Messiah by prominent religious leaders including Rabbi Akiva. Coins were minted with a picture of an imagined rebuilt Temple with a star above.
The parallel to the Maccabean revolt is hard to miss. The triggers in both cases was the placement of foreign idols on the Temple mount. The rebellion/war creates the 'great tribulation'.
When the writer of the Markan version explicitly says, 'let the reader use discernment' he is indicating parallels with the past.
Those that insist the 'abomination' refers to Roman army standards on the Temple mount after the conquering of Jerusalem in 70CE, must ask how after the destruction would it make sense to flee? It makes sense narratively to suggest the A of D was a prelude to the horrors needing to be escaped.
Also, the political situation of the years between 70 and 135, where empire wide Jewish rebellion and war called the 2nd Revolt, fits the "wars and rumors of wars' descriptor better. A prominent earthquake in 114 as well as the beginning of organized State oppression of Christians etc. best describe events well after 70CE.
This naturally complicates a simple reconstruction of Synoptic order. It might suggest as Hermann Detering suggests Luke preserves an older form by not including the Ab. of Des. phrase but only a reference to Roman armies. Then again, the author may have had his own reasons for amending what he saw in Matt and Mark
Is Mark 13 an abridgement of Matt 24 and an addition to the original Markan text? Maybe, some think so.
In the end, the basic hypothesis of Markan priority holds, with recognition that there were harmonization efforts for centuries. Some of these may be as large as the majority of Mark 13.
In the end we have to leave open the possibility that Mark, in essentially final form, may date later than most reference works suppose.
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The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity
by aqwsed12345 in1. the continuity and visibility of the church.
the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.
there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.
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peacefulpete
Nothing superstitious. My research has led me to the opinion that Mark in it's final form could be that late. The min-apocalypse shows signs of being reworked/updated to include events of the 3rd war. Matt followed soon, Luke a decade or so later. I'm being brief typing on my phone. This dates Luke roughly contemporary with 2 thess.
