peacefulpete

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Posts by peacefulpete

• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

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  peacefulpete

  Yes, and as Kaleb said that ought not be any more surprising than his walking around his garden or talking with snakes
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Somehow, when I believe I'm being clear, I'm not. My comments regarding the use of the conventions J and P (etc.) was to clarify that I'm not clinging to the Wellhausen form of source criticism. Yet the sources are distinct and my use of the labels is referent to the blocks of text not the hypotheticals associated with them.

  My comment was in response to the suggestion that individual sources can be linked to Babylon more intimately than others. All the sources appear to have been active during and after the exile. (using older short legend and motifs) It's entirely possible they were near contemporaneous camps of scribes. It's been argued that an extensive narrative such as was created through the merging of individual compilations best fits the Greek period, as literature of that nature was unknown prior. It was also the beginning of the era of fastidious scribal copying, which fortunately prevented extensive improvements on the final composition, thereby enabling us to perceive some of the document's history.

  The J story, whether you accept Freidman's belief that it was the backbone of the Pentateuch or not, betrays a nuanced talent, that to my understanding, resembles later Greek philosophical reuse of epic and satire. Perhaps I am reading too much into it.

  The Bronze Age collapse might well explain the opportunity for local kingdoms in the Fertile Crescent to get established and likely was the ultimate source of certain threads of tradition in the Primary History, but I was focusing on the 5th to 2nd century as the period of advanced literature and philosophy reaching Palestine, Alexandria and Babylon.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Jeffro...Here is a pretty persuasive recreation of the process behind the 'kid in mother's milk' passages.

  Prohibition of Meat and Milk: Its Origins in the Text - TheTorah.com

  I'll add that while I often use labels like J and P, in reality what I mean is distinct sources traditionally described as J, P, D etc. All of the sources and redactors were immersed in Babylonian. Persian and possibly/likely Greek culture.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Kaleb, glad you returned. What impressed me with the explanation I just laid out, was the absence of Torah in the J story. in fact the absence of polemics or moralizing at all.

  The story has a Greek flavor, meaning nearly satirical. The story is neither endorsing nor condemning the choice to become like God, it's actually a rhetorical thought exercise itself. What ifs are meant to be pondered. Would we have traded our freewill for the safety of the garden if that meant being merely one of the animals?

  I can't help noticing your comments blend the 2 stories together. The P story features Torah and has none of the philosophical feel. God blessed and gives the earth to man and woman, the blessing is implied connected to Sabbath and God's word.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Just had an interesting interaction with a Rabbi online. His take was pretty interesting. In the spirit of comments from KaleboutWest, he emphasized the literary nature of the episode. His view, and apparently not an unusual one, is that the pericope is a dramatization of the superiority of humans over animals in their "being like God". This elevation has the consequences (cost) of self-awareness (nakedness) and acute sense of mortality (day you eat you will die). Rather than being a 'fall' in fact it was a celebration of human intelligence and psychology while acknowledging our mortality.

  This then suggests all these elements of the story are primarily etiological. Just as the story is a mythical origin story for why women struggle in childbirth while other animals generally don't and why snakes have no legs, the story is a folk-tale-style treatise on human nature. The man and woman represent all people, so describing them as the first makes narrative sense.

  Rather than being a commentary opposing freewill it is actually celebrating the maturation to godlikeness of humans. In a parallel way it celebrates individual growth from children to psychologically developed adults.

  This is a much different take than I had adopted and find the idea quite plausible. It requires we credit the Yahwist with a developed sophistication that, ironically, countless readers did/do not possess.

  My mind goes to the Orwell Animal Farm story as a comparison. Not really a happy ending but powerful animal symbolism of human condition.

  Some might object to the depiction of God as essentially suppressing human potential, but this is actually a recurring theme, recall the tower of Babel story. Yahweh, as a character in these tales, is often depicted morally ambiguous.
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  22

  The Rapture

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when i was pioneering, i don't remember ever addressing the rapture question.

  does anyone know how a jw would respond to this verse?

  for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of god.

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  peacefulpete

  Pronger1....It's tempting to generalize about what Jews believed. However, the reality is 2nd temple Judaism was richly diverse. The extent literature from the time reveals no consensus regarding afterlife. Heaven, Gehenna, reincarnation, return to life on earth, no afterlife at all, all were accepted by various groups that identified as Jews. There were detailed depictions of multilayered heavens wherein OT characters were dwelling and martyrs could ascend to. The concept of 'Paradise' itself was just as diverse.

  As a writer from a such a diverse period, Paul's understanding of the topic is open to debate. In fact, IMO, there seems to not be a clearly expressed concise belief in the writings attributed to him. He (as it reads today) seems to be struggling with the topic.

  I'm going to step away for a while so best wishes on your research.
• 
  22

  The Rapture

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when i was pioneering, i don't remember ever addressing the rapture question.

  does anyone know how a jw would respond to this verse?

  for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of god.

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  peacefulpete

  Prolog1....I can't agree that his description of spirit 'bodies' amounts to a denial of going to heavenly presence of Christ.

  Paul uses earthly vs heavenly not as location but corruptible vs incorruptible.

  I see Paul saying earthly is corruptible and heavenly is incorruptible.
  
  

  How do you understand Phil.1:

  If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
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  22

  The Rapture

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when i was pioneering, i don't remember ever addressing the rapture question.

  does anyone know how a jw would respond to this verse?

  for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of god.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  John Chrysostom: For as when a king ceremoniously entered a city, certain dignitaries and city rulers, and many others who were confident toward the sovereign, would go out of the city to meet him; but the guilty and the condemned criminals would be guarded within, awaiting the sentence which the king would deliver. In the same way, when the Lord comes, those who are confident toward him will meet him in the midst of the air, but the condemned, who are conscious of having committed many sins, will wait below for their judge.

  It seems clear that Chrysostom understood 1 Thess as Pronger1 asserted , as a Roman style greeting procession. I've discussed this with others years ago. IMO it remains the best explanation. However the Pauline material (authorship aside) does clearly express hope of residing in heaven.(2 Cor 5:1)

  For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

  This in fact was commonly accepted in a number of forms of Judaism including Pharisaism.

  IMO, the writer was describing a processional greeting of the King upon his return but how he imagined the next stage is uncertain. Some have suggested the "and thus we shall forever be with the Lord" is an editor's or marginal gloss. This makes sense given the difficult sentence structure. Pauline material was otherwise extensively redacted and interpolated. But as is true of so much, we must accept we just can't be certain.
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  25

  Trump assassination attempt??

  by Diogenesister in

  1. social
  2. current

  it happened at a rally in pennsylvania, apparently.

  he seems ok i've seen a photo of him bleeding from his ear.

  this is absolutely nutso....if it's too it doesn't surprise me the way they constantly describe him as "far right" and that his supporters are "maga republicans".

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  peacefulpete

  As Biden said, everyone must condemn political violence. Everyone.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Indeed, this is an aspect that is predominant in the Christian faith...the separation of God from his creation or anything else for that matter.

  Many Jews and Christians would find that comment odd. Most would rather understand the animating of creation, including Adam, as the result of divine 'spirit/wind/breath' -a divine spark. Ecc 3 describes this divine 'spirit' as returning to God. Many saw the same in the trees and the wind.

  This is still seen in pericopes like John 9:6 where the man's healing is accomplished by a wind. Same as John 5 where the invalids rushed to enter the water when a breeze (from God) disturbed the surface.

  Not only that but on a theological level, the indwelling of Holy Spirit is the key identifier of a Christian. God/Christ dwells in Christians.

  9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

  Again, I'm not endorsing any theology here merely pointing out that many did not agree with the Deuteronomist. It's an interesting topic.