Posts by peacefulpete

17

Has The Interpretation of the Beast Changed?

by NotFormer in

my understanding* is that the un is supposed to be the wild beast of revelation.

the un only came into being after wwii, so what was the beast before the new light came about?

i can't see a speculative organisation like the wt not having an interpretation of the beast before the un came into being.

peacefulpete

Achille.....That was a great contribution to the history of this doctrine.

Here's a link that describes the development of the doctrine and near the end of that discussion is a link to more detailed history.

The UN, was the WTS given special knowledge?

21

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

peacefulpete

P.Schm.....Again sure, in context Wis of Sol is not messianic, but it certainly lent itself to that interpretation.

The debates about exactly how the Teacher of Righteousness of Qumran was perceived will probably continue. It's not surprising. It likely followed a path toward mythologizing common at the time. What we do know is that he was identified with the S.S. The "Self Glorification Hymn" has been tentatively identified with this T of R by a number of scholars. If this is correct then we have a complete example of a Jewish individualized interpretation of the S.S. followed by heavenly glorification similar to the Enochic tradition in which the human prophet is elevated to become the 'son of man'. Even if this text was a reference to a future Priestly Messiah, we have a collection of ideas that seem to predate (or contemporary) the Christian concept.

1. [ I am ]recko[ned with the angels, my dwelling is in] the holy

2. [council.] Wh[o has been accounted despicable like me? And who]

has been despised like m[e? And who]

3. has been shunned (rejected)[by men] like me? [And who] compares to [me in

enduring ]evil? [No teaching]

4. compares to my teaching. [For ]I sit [ in heaven]

5. Who is like me among the angels? [Who would cut me off when I

open my mouth? And] who

6. could measure [the flow] of my lips? Who[ can associate with me in

speech, and thus compare with my judgement? For I]

7. am the beloved of the King, a companion of the ho[ly ones, and no

one can accompany me. And to my glory]

8. no one can compare, for I [have my station with the angels, and my

glory with the sons of the King. Neither]

9. with gold will (I) cro[wn myself, nor with refined gold ]

10. [ ] Sing,[ O beloved ones

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

peacefulpete

"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man,
because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions;
he reproaches us for sins against the law,
and accuses us of sins against our training.
[13] He professes to have knowledge of God,
and calls himself a child of the Lord.
[14] He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
[15] the very sight of him is a burden to us,
because his manner of life is unlike that of others,
and his ways are strange.
[16] We are considered by him as something base,
and he avoids our ways as unclean;
he calls the last end of the righteous happy,
and boasts that God is his father.
[17] Let us see if his words are true,
and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
[18] for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him,
and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
[19] Let us test him with insult and torture,
that we may find out how gentle he is,
and make trial of his forbearance.
[20] Let us condemn him to a shameful death,
for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

Wisdom of Solomon 2.

Not exactly on topic but does at least demonstrate the acceptance of suffering and death of righteous, in contrast to the maxim that suffering was result of disfavor. The adoption of afterlife rewards and punishment contributed no doubt. In fact the spirit of martyrdom was rampant.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

peacefulpete

The 4 craftsman motif similarly conceptualized a slain "son of Joseph" messiah. 4Q175..seems to be consistent with this idea. I have to spend another day at the hospital (father) but intend to expand on these thoughts.

But I'll repeat that the objection most often declared is a nuanced differentiation.

To be sure, the near proverbial suffering prophet, Son of Man and Suffering Servant are merged into a singular concept most fully and explicitly in some strands of Christianity. But the more fundamental notion of a righteous teacher or agent of deliverance being persecuted and even killed was quite current in the times among Jewish thought. The Rabbinic usage of 2nd Isaiah this way doesn't require we believe they adopted a Christian interpretation, is demonstrates how the text inspired sympathetic comparisons.

11

My parents did not really shun me when I left but I am now breaking their hearts…

by sinboi in

if they have shunned me and chase me out of the house when i leave the cult, i would not give a damn.

i can still feel their love and concern for me even now.. though i have moved out voluntarily when i joined the army, i am afraid that the life i am living now will break their hearts.

i am now a bartender in a bar and am cohabiting with a woman.

peacefulpete

Make your own peace with your past. Forgive me, but you seem to need to.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

peacefulpete

PioneerSchmioneer....There is a lot of good stuff in that review. Your comment

But the Jews did not believe in a "suffering" messiah. Where did that come about?

is passionately insisted amongst Jewish commentators.

However, I find that a splitting of hairs and a debate about semantics.

As you probably know a number of texts from Qumran describe what most readers would describe as messiah figures that do endure derision and suffering, even death. In fact they make allusions to the very Isaiah suffering servant passages. Various Talmudic references similarly describe the experiences of Rabbis using the words of the suffering servant in parallel. IOW, we have extant a number of diverse usages of the suffering servant description used in parallel with real or idealized figures of religious importance. IMO, the distinction drawn between these examples and the later Christian usage to be one of semantics, parallel vs. typology.

43

Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

by Sea Breeze in

dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

information packed.

interesting take on paganism as well.

peacefulpete

But none of this changes the overwhelming evidence that Jesus was crucified on a cross and not a pole. JW's just love being contrarians to bolster their pseudo-intellectualism.

As I made clear, the NT seems to support that at least some writers did envision a cross shape. I'm not certain that we can say all early Christians felt that way nor can we say whether the concept was born from history or an early tradition. But on that matter, we will likely never agree. You can say I'm being a contrarian.

AS to Martyr's comments about Jesus being 50, what concerns me most is not an error but the appeal to the authority of 'Apostles" to make his point. Either he was making that up that story in an effort to silence his opponents or this view really was held by many others who apparently had inherited that understanding.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

peacefulpete

6 And He said, It is too small a thing that Thou shouldest be Servant to Me to raise up the sons of Jacob, and to bring back the Netzurei Yisroel (Preserved of Israel,); I will also give Thee for Ohr Goyim, that Thou mayest be My Yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.

2nd Isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of Cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen. Many Judahites had lost hope and even lost faith. The explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing. Now a voice arose that had an alternative explanation. Their suffering was for the sake of the Gentiles. God had a larger plan in mind. He used Israel as his servant to bring his glory and salvation to the nations, i.e. Babylon and Egypt and nations all around.

It was a novel idea, and not many found it persuasive, but some apparently did.

Fast forward a few centuries and again (or still) facing foreign domination many of these passages and many others were reinterpreted as Messianic.

It just struck me earlier today how this particular passage may have contributed to 2 elements. The self identification of the Qumran community as the Nozrei ha-Brit (preservers/guardians/watchers of the covenant) might be the first.

Variations of this word and derivatives are many, e.g. Nozrei, Notzri, Netzurei, Nazar, Nazarite, Nazorean or Nazarene. All have a root meaning of watch over, guard and preserve.

The Qumran community and subsequent Christian Jews took this name. Might this passage explain why? I have not exhaustively researched this so any comments welcome.

Secondly the name Jesus/Joshua was not accidental. A number of Jewish movements had the clear expectation that the greatest warrior of their mythic past would return to liberate them again. This is explicitly referred to in a number of writings from the last centuries BCE. In addition, the Zechariah 6 text had contributed to this connection between the "branch" and the name Jesus/Joshuah/Yeshuah.

I wonder if this Isaiah verse might have as well.

Note that Yahweh's 'Yeshuah' (salvation) is in the very section discussing Israel's fate to be the suffering servant, that Christians reinterpreted to be typologically in reference to Jesus (salvation).

43

Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

by Sea Breeze in

dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

information packed.

interesting take on paganism as well.

peacefulpete

It's also worth mentioning that the cross shape was perceived as fulfillment of OT passages (Ps 22:20-2; Deut 33:17) that described the horns of an auroch (Martyr and Tertullian). As such it's not impossible the idea was drawn from scripture not the other way around.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I think it's obvious that in some texts, as they exist today, the writers were envisioning a cross shape from the incidental description.

43

Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

by Sea Breeze in

dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

information packed.

interesting take on paganism as well.

peacefulpete

Just to appraise the value of Irenaeus testimony, a few paragraphs earlier he is insistent that Jesus was 50 years old. Arguing passionately that the Apostles taught this. Reality is, the traditions were all in flux yet.

On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that the first 392stage of early life embraces thirty years,3140 and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information.3141 And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan.3142 Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement. Whom then should we rather believe? Whether such men as these, or Ptolemæus, who never saw the apostles, and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle?