peacefulpete

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Posts by peacefulpete

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  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

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  peacefulpete

  Just to be clear I wasn't suggesting Plato was responsible for the Gospels.

  As a personal project, I'm collecting relevant information regarding the religious and ethical climate of the early days of Christianity. Every Christian is aware of how today's forms of Christianity are in part an adaptation to the age we live in. Some embrace change others get dragged along, but change comes either way. The Reformation was in a large way the product of political struggles, increasing literacy and scientific progress. The faith grew differently in different soil. Similarly, the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century (WT included) was triggered and fostered under a new spirit of individualism and socio-economic change.

  In the same way, the so-called intertestamental period events and cultural pressures spawned new ideas about God and salvation. Some of these ideas are very surprising. The more we learn the less surprising the birth of Christianity becomes. No religion is an island.
• 
  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  PetrW...nice comment.

  Another interesting element from the all-pervasive Plato, in discussing with Socrates, the just man in contrast to the unjust:

  Plat. Rep. 2.361-2
  

  ...our theory must set the just man at his side—a simple and noble man, who, in the phrase of Aeschylus, does not wish to seem but be good. Then we must deprive him of the seeming.4 For if he is going to be thought just [361c] he will have honors and gifts because of that esteem. We cannot be sure in that case whether he is just for justice' sake or for the sake of the gifts and the honors. So we must strip him bare of everything but justice and make his state the opposite of his imagined counterpart.5 Though doing no wrong he must have the repute of the greatest injustice, so that he may be put to the test as regards justice through not softening because of ill repute and the consequences thereof. But let him hold on his course unchangeable even unto death, .... What they will say is this: that such being his disposition the just man will have to endure the lash, the rack, chains, the branding-iron in his eyes, and finally, after every extremity of suffering, he will be crucified.

  Unquestioningly, the writers of the NT were aware of these writings. Might this concept have helped shape the story?
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  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  peacefulpete

  New to me was a legendary version of the death of Cyrus. The liberator/messiah of Jewish people. Maybe stretching but then again part of the zeitgeist of the day.

  Diodorus Siculus (1cent BCE):

  2 For instance, when Cyrus the king of the Persians, the mightiest ruler of his day, made a campaign with a vast army into Scythia, the queen of the Scythians not only cut the army of the Persians to pieces but she even took Cyrus prisoner and crucified him;​....
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  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Graffito of a crucified person.
  
  Ἀλκίμιλα is written top left.
  
  EDR178207. H. 0.35.
  

  Photo: Camodeca 2018, p. 207. dated 110-140 ce
  
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  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Regarding the use of 'pagan' symbols, remember the Hezekiah seal?

  Unsurprisingly it contained the Egyptian ankh.
• 
  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  I mentioned symbolism of "suspension", aka crucifixion. Note Philo's metaphoric/symbolic language associated with the practice.

  ......for it follows of necessity, that the body must be thought akin to the souls that love the body, and that external good things must be exceedingly admired by them, and all the souls which have this kind of disposition depend on dead things, and, like persons who are crucified, are attached to corruptible matter till the day of their death. (62) But the soul that is united to virtue has for its inhabitants those persons who are preeminent for virtue, persons whom the double cavern has received in pairs, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebeckah, Leah and Jacob, virtues and those who possess them; Chebron itself keeping the treasure-house of the memorials of knowledge and wisdom, which is more ancient than Janis and the whole land of Egypt, for nature has made the soul more ancient than the body, that is than Egypt, and virtue more ancient than vice, that is than Janis (and the name Janis, being interpreted, means the command of answer), estimating seniority rather by dignity than by length of time.

  Crucifixion had taken on a moral/philosophical meaning beyond the obvious OT connotation of humiliation and curse.

  Early Gnostic Christians retained a similar view. Some allegorized the Logos/primal man descending to a lower state as a crucifixion.

  These early theologies are easiest explained as a continuum of earlier Jewish thought.
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  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Seabreeze....Alleged Christian Crosses in Herculaneum and Pompeii on JSTOR

  The cruciform indentation in a wall of Herculaneum was probably left by the support for a shelf.
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  7

  Derek Ohare was murdered. R.I.P dear friend

  by Newly Enlightened in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  https://youtu.be/667n4uwbk4e?si=1dvek-qfw7ebf9up.

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  peacefulpete

  Tragic.

  I recall in the 70's this style of exJw activism was more common. Hardly a convention didn't have someone calling out on the sidewalk. I have to believe it worked at least for some. I recall, "Mr Coffee" (and half and half) spent years out front the WT headquarters pointedly calling out what he saw as hypocrisy.

  Then again as JWs we did the identical thing standing in a public setting calling out to passersby that the end was near. The politically correct age we live in makes these methods seem dated and even wrong. What's wrong is staying quiet when something needs to be said.
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  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Crucifixion In Antiquity An Inquiry Into The Background And Significance Of The New Testament Terminology Of Crucifixion : Joemirates : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
  
• 
  43

  Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

  information packed.

  interesting take on paganism as well.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Phizzy....IMO the generally ambiguous references to the death, even the ambiguous terminology, all contribute to the theological development of the story.

  First off there was no specific noun or verb that differentiated the Roman (or earlier) use of a two or more piece implement for execution (or postmortem public suspension). Therefore, insisting that the words used have any particular narrow definition is bringing something to the text. (unless the context makes clear what the author is describing.) All relevant terminology appears to have had usage beyond the simple etymology of the words. Such is typical of language.

  As Phizzy pointed out, there is a larger question in play. Given the pre-Christian symbolism of public execution and suspension (on tree, pole) we have to consider whether the earliest pre-Gospel Christians had the Roman execution methods in mind at all. For example, Doherty's thesis concludes that at the foundation of Christianity is a passion play in the spirit realm that was euhemerized in the Gospel story through use of OT typology and the contemporary Roman domination of Israel. Without further expansion on this thought, I'll suggest that this is consistent with the issue under discussion. The NT has the concept of 'suspension' (with theological implications) foremost, not the particular shape of the implement, though in some contexts it seems clear they had a cross in mind.