Posts by peacefulpete

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

Hey Phizzy....I have had a similar fascination with the JTB character.

About 20 years ago we used to discuss this stuff on this site. I stumbled across an original copy of "The Lost Book of the Nativity of John" by H. Schonfield, signed by him no less. Anyway, it opened a new way for reconstructing Christian origins. It was surmised by Schonfield that the nativity stories in Matt and Luke were, if not originally directed toward JTB then at least parallelled by him. Yes they ultimately were drawn from the OT but history seems to have forgotten how JTB inspired similar if not identical legends to those associated with "Jesus/Joshua".

Given the abundant evidence for a preChristian anthropomorphism of divine aspects/emanations/hypostases of God combined with popular belief that a "Joshua/Jesus" would return to defend Israel and the "Messiah son of Joseph" (one of the 4 craftsmen who was to reunify Israel) The Qumran texts, that demonstrate similar expectations, link the Essenes who many regard JTB as being from. IOW, all the ingredients are there. It might just be that we have in fact long known the historical Jesus, he was right in front of us.

Some years ago, again on this site, Leolaia remarked about how the death (by "Herod") and claims of resurrection of JTB find a larger typology in that of Jesus. More and more it appears the author of Mark was a brilliant fellow, he packaged some deeper spiritual concepts into a theatrical style narrative. The Christ was a hypostasis of God and his narrative drawn from typological usage of the OT and in more recent times JTB.

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

A further note by way of correction. I uncritically accepted a comment on a Christian website that located the fortress Machaerus (built by King Herod the Great) as being in Galilee. In fact, it is over 100 miles south on the eastern side of the Dead Sea.

This and a number of other elements are suggestive that there is a conflation of Herods going on. John the Baptist is baptizing in Judea, gets arrested by Herod the Tetrarch of Galilee to the north/east so Jesus hears this and flees to Galilee?????

Matt 4:12When Jesus heard that John had been imprisoned, He withdrew to Galilee.

Did the Matthean author correctly believe that his source (Mark) identified Herod the Great (King Herod) in Judea not Tetrarch Antipas had JTB arrested and killed?

This would then mean the alteration the present text of Matthew was later redacted at the dancing girl scene to conform with the Josephus version that identifies Herod Antipas as his killer?

It's all very confusing.

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

OK, back to the daughter, "Salome". I mentioned briefly above that there are textaul manuscript variants here again.

In some authoritative manuscripts, such as Sinaiticus, Vaticanus and Codex Bezae, the text reads as follows: καὶ εἰσελθούσης τῆς θυγατρὸς αὐτοῦ Ἡρῳδιάδος (Nestle-Aland 1979:107). This reading is printed in Nestle-Aland since the 26th edition. The word αὐτοῦ is striking here. The Holy Bible New Revised Standard Version (1989:41) prefers this reading and translates this verse as follows: ‘When his daughter Herodias came in’. This choice implies that the young girl is the daughter of Herod Antipas himself, and that her name is Herodias, just like her mother, who is (also) called Herodias. The reading with αὐτοῦ is the lectio difficilior and ‘must be adopted on the strength of its external attestation’ (Metzger 1975:90). Because according to Mark 6:24,28, Herodias is the mother of this girl, this girl must be the daughter of Antipas and Herodias. Antipas is not her paternal uncle but her father. (Wim J.C. Weren, Herodias and Salome in Mark’s story about the beheading of John the Baptist)

So we have a alternate tradition that that daughter was not Salome (the daughter of Herodias and Herod II) but rather the daughter of Antipas and Herodias whose name was also Herodias. Now we have to ask why might these variants exists.

Some have suggested the tradition that the daughter was not Antipas's daughter is due to the impossible timeline it creates.

continue later

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

A small comment that I forgot to include was Mark's use of the title "King" for Herod Antipas. The writer betrays his unfamiliarity with the political situation by doing so. Herod the Great was titled King whereas when the Romans divided his Kingdom into 3 sections, his son Herod Antipas was merely a tetrarch not a King. Antipas craved the title "King" till eventually Caligula has him exiled for attempting to acquire it through manipulation. The Matthean redactor (followed by the author of Luke) corrected this mistake, correctly addressing him as Tetrarch.

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

Hopefully it was understood I meant first husband of herodias not wife.

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

researching

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

The traditional name Salome in the story, (though unnamed in all the Gospels) described as a very young girl in the Greek. Also poses a problem. Salome known to history was the daughter of Herodias and Herod II.

As Josephus reports in Jewish Antiquities (Book XVIII, Chapter 5, 4):

Herodias [...] was married to Herod,[b] the son of Herod the Great, who was born of Mariamne, the daughter of Simon the high priest, who had a daughter, Salome; after whose birth Herodias took upon her to confound the laws of our country, and divorced herself from her husband while he was alive, and was married to Herod, her husband's brother by the father's side, he was tetrarch of Galilee; but her daughter Salome was married to Philip,[c] the son of Herod, and tetrarch of Trachonitis; and as he died childless, Aristobulus,[d] the son of Herod,[e] the brother of Agrippa, married her; they had three sons, Herod, Agrippa, and Aristobulus;[11]

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

I briefly mentioned the manuscript variants regarding the name of the first wife of Herodias in Matthew. Likely this was an editor's attempt to sort the story out. Phillip the Tetrarch was never titled "Herod". The "Herod" whose wife Herod Antipas took was apparently Herod II.

There is no contemporary evidence for Philip the Tetrarch's use of the name "Herod Philip" (Greek: Ἡρώδης Φίλιππος, Hērōdēs Philippos) as a dynastic title, as did occur with his brothers Herod Antipas and Herod Archelaus. Herod II is sometimes called "Herod Philip I" (because both the Gospel of Matthew [4] and Gospel of Mark [5] call the husband of Herodias "Philip"), and then Philip the Tetrarch is called "Herod Philip II".[6][7] Kokkinos says, "The stubborn insistence of many theologians in referring to Herod III as 'Herod Philip' is without any value...No illusory Herod Philip ever existed."[7][pp. 223–233]; [266] Philip the Tetrarch, "unlike his brothers, did not use Herod as a dynastic name."[8] Philip's half-brothers, Archelaus and Antipas, had adopted the name of Herod, "presumably" for a dynastic claim from Herod the Great.[9
Herod II was the first husband of Herodias, and because both the Gospel of Matthew [3] and Gospel of Mark [4] state that Herodias was married to Philip, some scholars have argued that his name was actually Herod Philip. Because he was the grandson of the high priest Simon Boethus he is sometimes described as Herod Boethus, but there is no evidence he was actually thus called.[5]

43

Hip replacement on Monday. Wish me luck.

by GrreatTeacher in

as the title says i'm having a total hip replacement on monday.

the pain has grown over the years and now i'm using a cane to walk.

after steroid injections and physical therapy, it was decided that a total hip replacement is appropriate.

peacefulpete

Neighbor lady had it done 3 years ago, she just came back from bowling competition. So, I guess it was a good choice.

They often say the results are up to the patient's determination and willingness to do the post-op therapy. So, just do it. Good luck.