Posts by peacefulpete

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

Perhaps that was a bit clumsy of me. Sea Breeze, Perhaps you assumed I would disagree about the intent of the Gospel writers. As I mentioned last year when I started this thread, I am sure that the Roman execution by nailing to a cross was described.

Ironically, what some interpret as mocking the Christian faith, in my mind actually elevates it. If the origins of the Christian faith are found to have been purely revelatory, mystical and spiritual, in my mind that is of a higher Christology than that presented in the Canonical Gospels. If that is true, then the second layer of Christian development (the creation of historizing story drawn from Homer and the OT) diminished the story and insulted the original believers.

Religious "truth" is not measured by eye witnesses, but by the elevating of people's value and love.

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

What case is that?

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

P.S. ,,,,I'm certain the interpretive symbolism you describe is accurate. My point of those last haphazard posts was to act as a word doc file for later research. LOL I'm too cheap to buy Word.

Anyway, the research I am engaged in is the possible preChristian usage of the tree or cross that may have inspired the Jesus story. There are just so many provocative elements from the period.

I am strongly inclined to accept some form of a Christ myth reconstruction of Christian origins.

5

Edgerton Gospel

by peacefulpete in

regarded as likely the oldest (or tied with oldest) gospel fragment we have is that named the unknown gospel or the edgerton gospel.

sadly it is very fragmentary.

debates regarding it's relationship with the 4 canonical gospels have continued since it was found.

peacefulpete

Regarded as likely the oldest (or tied with oldest) Gospel fragment we have is that named the Unknown Gospel or the Edgerton Gospel. Sadly it is very fragmentary. Debates regarding it's relationship with the 4 canonical Gospels have continued since it was found. The short readable sections reveal alternate versions of stories in the Gospels and an otherwise unknow story about Jesus on the shore of the Jordan river. Below is a reconstruction:

"(...) shut up (...) has been subjected uncertainly (...) its weight unweighted?" And when they where perplexed at the strange question, Jesus, as he walked, stood on the lip of the Jordan river, stretching out his right hand, filled it with (...) and sowed upon the (...). And the (...) water (...) the (...). And (...) before them, he brought forth fruit (...) much (...) for joy (...)

While a number of attempts to decipher the damaged wording have arrived a slightly different opinions, the thrust of the story is pretty clear.

A small seed in the ground is hidden and invisible. How does its abundance become immeasurable?
(By growing and bringing fruit.)
To clarify this, Jesus performs a miracle: He walks up to the river Jordan and with the water he gives rise to a spontaneous ripening of fruit. (much, for joy!)

Discussion?

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

Ascension of Isaiah 9: 13. Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man.

14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.

15. And thus His descent, as you will see, will be hidden even from the heavens, so that it will not be known who He is.

16. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day,

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

Testament of Levi; Chapter 3

3:1 “Listen, therefore, concerning the heavens which have been shown to you.”
3:2 “The lowest is dark for this reason: It sees all the injustices of humankind and contains fire, snow, and ice, ready for the Day determined by God’s Righteous Judgment. In it are all the spirits of those dispatched to achieve the punishment of mankind.”
3:3 “In the second are the armies arrayed for the Day of Judgment to work vengeance on the spirits of error and of Beliar. Above them are the Holy Ones.” Revelation 19:11-16
3:4 “In the uppermost heaven of all dwells the Great Glory in the Holy of Holies, superior to all holiness.”
3:5 “There with him are the archangels, who serve and offer propitiatory sacrifices to the Lord in behalf of all the sins of ignorance of the righteous ones.”
3:6 “They present to the Lord a pleasing odor, a rational and bloodless oblation.”

Sacrifices are made in heaven.

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

A few notes I wanted to log onto this thread, so as to consider later.

As noted above the mytheme death by crucifixion on a tree was ancient and familiar to first century writers. Combine that with the Deut/Genesis link. The usage of the paleo Hebrew TAV as a Jewish symbol for 1. Truth 2. sign 3. life or death. Ez 9:4 places a Tav on the foreheads of those to live. and Then consider texts such as : Sybylline oracles 345: And4 one shall come again from heaven, a man Preeminent, whose hands on fruitful tree By far the noblest of the Hebrews stretched, Who at one time did make the sun stand still (Joshua/Jesus) 350 When he spoke with fair word and holy lips, No longer vex thy soul within thy breast By reason of the sword, rich child of God, Flower longed for by him only, goodly light And noble branch, a scion much beloved....

Further, the Mandean (followers of John the Baptist) connection is usually overlooked. The Drabsha. Drabsha - Wikipedia

Rather than be a symbol of crucifixion it represents the 4 directions and the white cloth is the "Light" of God.

10

the name Jehovah: magical?

by enoughisenough in

didn't know the best subject area to put this question under....i was listening to a discussion on youtube the other day while working, so not getting every point ....part of what was talked about was the word jehovah, ( not being the most accurate translation of yhwh ) was however pushed by illuminati /secret societies for its use in magic.

(as i informed, i wasn't getting the whole conversion as i also had attention elsewhere and some of the conversation was hard to follow.

) so i am wondering if anyone on here has more information on the subject they care to share.

peacefulpete

CriticalBible2.0......The Hellenization of the ancient world was met by groups of worshippers of YHWH in very different ways. When Alexander allowed YHWH worshipers in the north (Samaria) to build a temple for themselves on mt. Gerizim, it cemented a division that lasted centuries. Likewise the millions of Jews living in Egypt under the Ptolemies developed a rich Hellenized form of Judaism, with deep respect for the traditions of Egypt, Greece and Palestine. Many understood the "True" God was in fact known through these other traditions as well. Equating Zeus or Jupiter with Yahweh was a natural process of syncretism. This wasn't the origin of the name YHWH which is much more ancient and likely from a deity in the south of Palestine.

74

Doctrines and Bible Interpretations

by IWant2Know in

i would like to know if ex's and formers who are not church christians, believe that many of jws' doctrines and bible interpretations are correct, or do you feel that they aren't?

.

peacefulpete

Generally speaking, "interpretations" become necessary only when readers mistakenly believe all passages must be "harmonized" or when the text contains obvious error. Allowing for the originality and uniqueness of each writer as well as allowing for human error, then the only thing needing to be interpreted is deliberately cryptic passages meant for an ancient audience, not people living thousands of years later.

32

C.T. Russell, Occultist

by metatron in

jw
friends

one aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.

adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.

were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.

peacefulpete

Russell era doctrine was not Adventist, but Age to Come, the American designation for British Literalism. Russell had known contacts with Second Adventists, that is Advent Christian Association and Life and Advent Union advocates. But he adopted the doctrines of the older Literalist belief system that developed in Britain starting in at least the late 17th Century.

Naturally, American 'Adventism' as a movement was a loosely defined outgrowth of British precedents. While he drew from an eclectic religious background for his unique particulars, his movement certainly was part of the American Adventist school of religious thought. Thanks for your passionate work.