Posts by peacefulpete

10

Faithful & Discreet Slave - 72 years ago!

by BoogerMan in

it was every jw taking part in the preaching work.

lol.. (matthew 24:45) “who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?.

w50 7/1 p. 199 par.

peacefulpete

Not to split hairs again but you may be reading into that 1950 quote. Might you have the paragraph?

truth_b_known....yes the organization was different, far more belligerent and bombastic than today.

5

Parable as an example of Editorial Fatigue.

by peacefulpete in

16 the first appeared, saying, ‘[d]master, your [e]mina has made ten minas more.’ 17 and he said to him, ‘well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.’ 18 the second came, saying, ‘your [f]mina, [g]master, has made five minas.’ 19 and he said to him also, ‘and you are to be over five cities.’ 20 another came, saying, ‘master, here is your mina, which i kept put away in a handkerchief; 21 for i was afraid of you, because you are an exacting man; you take up what you did not lay down and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 he *said to him, ‘[h]by your own words i will judge you, you worthless slave.

23 then why did you not put my money in the bank, and having come, i would have collected it with interest?’ 24 then he said to the bystanders, ‘take the mina away from him and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25 and they said to him, ‘master, he has ten minas already.’ 26 i tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

luke....‘take the mina away from him and give it to the one who has the ten minas.

peacefulpete

I had trouble posting that thread again. It took about 8 hours to post. I made some errors that I would have loved to correct but it was too late this morning. But hopefully anyone interested in the topic will read Goodacre's article.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

peacefulpete

Drivel red herring sophistry to confuse an unsure audience . Both scriptures are referring to the 70 year captivity of Judah in Babylon.

Sorry, don't see any red herring sophistry, I'm letting the texts speak as to how the expression was used. Zechariah is clearly not just concerned about Babylon as Babylon had been conquered by the Persians 20 years before his "vision". He saw the end of the "70 years" as connected to the completion of the temple.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

peacefulpete

Nice point, the 2nd century BC author of Daniel understood the land of Judah to have been inhabited. He also found a creative new use for the 70 year motif as we know.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

peacefulpete

You have quoted two prophets who used the 70 motif differently.

Zechariah dating his vision of an angelic horseman to about 520BCE has no problem saying "these 70 years" implying a period not yet complete.

Jeremiah on the other hand uses 70 to describe a period of Babylonian hegemony over the nations. (ending about 539-40BCE)

It is obvious these two authors saw the 70 as a flexible motif.

5

Parable as an example of Editorial Fatigue.

by peacefulpete in

16 the first appeared, saying, ‘[d]master, your [e]mina has made ten minas more.’ 17 and he said to him, ‘well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.’ 18 the second came, saying, ‘your [f]mina, [g]master, has made five minas.’ 19 and he said to him also, ‘and you are to be over five cities.’ 20 another came, saying, ‘master, here is your mina, which i kept put away in a handkerchief; 21 for i was afraid of you, because you are an exacting man; you take up what you did not lay down and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 he *said to him, ‘[h]by your own words i will judge you, you worthless slave.

23 then why did you not put my money in the bank, and having come, i would have collected it with interest?’ 24 then he said to the bystanders, ‘take the mina away from him and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25 and they said to him, ‘master, he has ten minas already.’ 26 i tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

luke....‘take the mina away from him and give it to the one who has the ten minas.

peacefulpete

The parable of the faithful slave vs wicked slave (appearing in Matt 24 and Luke 12, aka double tradition) has consumed a whole lot of bandwidth here. Setting that particular parable aside for the moment lets look at the parallel parable of the talents/minas in (Matt 25:14-30 and Luke 19:11-27, also double tradition, not found in Mark)

Mattews version:

14 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five [a]talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his [b]master’s money.

19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your [c]master.’

22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’

24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’

26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money [d]in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke's version:

12 So He said, “A nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return. 13 And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them ten [a]minas and said to them, ‘Do business with this [b]until I come back.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent [c]a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15 When he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him so that he might know what business they had done. 16 The first appeared, saying, ‘[d]Master, your [e]mina has made ten minas more.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.’ 18 The second came, saying, ‘Your [f]mina, [g]master, has made five minas.’ 19 And he said to him also, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20 Another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I kept put away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are an exacting man; you take up what you did not lay down and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 He *said to him, ‘[h]By your own words I will judge you, you worthless slave. Did you know that I am an exacting man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Then why did you not put my money in the bank, and having come, I would have collected it with interest?’ 24 Then he said to the bystanders, ‘Take the mina away from him and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25 And they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas already.’ 26 I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 27 But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.”

This parable is an example of editorial fatigue. The writer of Luke obviously has Matt in view when including this parable. Matt's expansion on Mark 13:34 is emulated by Luke but he has made some changes to his source material. The first obvious change is to alter Matt's 3 servants to 10. The trust money also changes. The unit of money aside, (60 minas to a talent) in Matt each gets according to ability 5,2 and 1. Whereas in Luke each of the ten gets 1. The conclusion is also different in that in Matt the first servant made 5 more from the 5 (total 10) and gets rewarded with authority over "many things" and the second made 2 more with the 2 (total 4) and also rewarded with "many things", whereas in Luke (who had 10 servants now agrees with Matt in having only 3 in the summary). The first made 10 more with his 1 (11 total) and is rewarded with 10 cities the second made 5 more with his one (6 total) and receives 5 cities. And another has not not done anything.

So while Luke made changes to Matt he retained certain elements that make his version rather awkward in comparison. Why 10 servants but only 3 get mention? The conclusion is also telling:

Luke....‘Take the mina away from him and give it to the one who has the ten minas

Matt.....take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.

Here Luke has copied Matt (his source) without noticing this causes a problem due to his changes. The reward of ten monetary units makes less sense in Luke as he has the first slave have 11 and gets 10 cities as a reward. It is only in Matt that the first slave gets rewarded with 10 units of money.

Again this an example of editorial fatigue. Luke, for his own reasons, makes changes to his source Matt but by the end has reverted to more closely follow Matt even though this makes his reading less coherent.

There are many examples like this.

Goodacre did a nice article on this: https://markgoodacre.org/fatigue.pdf

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

peacefulpete

It's all important to remember the nature of "prophetic" works. They were poetic, creative and hyperbolical. A motif like "70 years" was freely utilized without contradiction. When 2 or 3 writers contradict as to the starting and ending terminuses it likely because they understood the "70" to be flexible. I see here arguments for one roughly 70 years to start here and passionate rebuttals of a different starting and ending date. I've tried to show the debate is pointless, there is no way to settle what is not actually a disagreement. The evidence strongly suggests the motif of 70 to be a prophetic trope for a long time, a lifetime.

On a similar vein, the notions of horrible abuse and deprivations in exile are literary, Jeremiah 29 describes their lives as pretty good. And the Jews were to pray for the prosperity of Babylon.

5 “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.”

The "desolate" land is again a literary creation reflecting angst about homesickness more than reality. The land continued to be farmed and trade continued to go on as it had before.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

peacefulpete

It is very interesting that after Jerusalem was destroyed as mentioned in the verses above, the land was not desolate because some Jews remained under a governor named Gedaliah who was ironically assassinated by a man named Ismael. It was after this event that the king of Babylon sent the remaining Jews to Babylon and the land began to be actually desolate.

The empty land myth has been debunked here decades ago. Even the post exile additions of Jeremiah 52 and the contradictory addition in 2 Kings 24:14,16 imagine 4-10,000 exiles. The Jewish Encyclopedia many years ago said:

Furthermore, if it be assumed that the total population of the kingdom of Judah was about 120,000 (the figures should probably be somewhat higher, as the country was at that time more densely populated than it is to-day), about one-fourth of the population (according to II Kings xxiv. 16) or, perhaps more correctly, one-eighth (according to Jer. lii. 28-30) was led captive into Babylonia.

Archaeology confirms that the land was continuously inhabited.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

peacefulpete

Isaiah 23

15 At that time Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years, the span of a king’s life. But at the end of these seventy years, it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the prostitute:

16 “Take up a harp, walk through the city,
you forgotten prostitute;
play the harp well, sing many a song,
so that you will be remembered.”

17 At the end of seventy years, the Lord will deal with Tyre. She will return to her lucrative prostitution and will ply her trade with all the kingdoms on the face of the earth.

Here again the motif of "70" years is understood to mean a lifespan. Take that as you will.

8

Temple Talk

by peacefulpete in

recall the famous charge made against jesus in his trial in the gospel mark: .

“we heard him say, ‘i will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days i will build another, not made with hands.’”.

matt has a shorter version which likely reflects what he saw in his copy of mark *:.

peacefulpete

Fish.... I understand you to be saying the Temple was a metaphor for Jesus' body which was a metaphor for the new Jerusalem which is a metaphor for the church.