My choice was simple, accept the world's best medical professionals' advice or that of angry antiestablishmentarianist factory workers and media shock jocks.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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25
Vid obsession
by punkofnice ini'm interested in your thoughts.. the media tells us a lot of agenda driven propaganda.
you're hard pressed to spot truth these days.. however, i'm told that the rona is now just a rotten flu and not the plague we were originally terrified in to believing.
last time i heard it was down in the hit parade to 16th nasty health thing.. all the people and family i know that have had the rona, have been complaining it's a very crappy flu.
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Subliminal POMO image at JW.org
by Smiles inpomo-c. physically-out-mentally-out... of cult .
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https://www.jw.org/en/news/jw/region/ukraine/update-4-brotherly-love-prevails-amid-ongoing-crisis-in-ukraine/.
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peacefulpete
As they say in the world of comedy, there is such a thing as, "too soon".
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
You asked, "why should they lie?"
Here's why.
1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect" apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.
At issue to men like Irenaeus was control of the nascent Catholic church. It was seen as imperative that there be an unbroken succession from the Apostles to the present church leadership. It also served to facilitate church dogma beyond the text of the writings they endorsed as from Apostolic hand or association.
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
No, in my view MS and factual evidence would be wholly unrelated to interpretation. What I read today and my interpretation would be far removed from the interpretation of, for example, the Church Fathers. Each interprets the Bible in his/her own way, depending on personality, background, schooling and internal/external influences.
I agree completely. I just ask the follow up question, Is this really the best God can do?
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Vidqun, would you recommend a similar approach to the Koran or the Vedas? How about the Urantia book?Dianetics?
. As a scientist, .....
No doubt you have training as a scientist, but you are definitely not acting as a scientist in this discussion.
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Vidqun..The account according to Eusebius, a solid and reliable Church historian
I'll remind you it was Eusebius who argued that John the Presbyter was likely the author of the Apocalypse
You suggest I dismiss Polycarp as ahistorical, not at all. His legend grew however to include many rather ridiculous tales of miracles and embellishments. You mention his martyrdom. Do you believe the story as found in the Martyrdom of Polycarp? (An anonymous document written sometime in the 2nd to 4th century)
Do you feel a voice from heaven told him to be "a man" and that the towering fire refused to kill him but only made him glow and smell like frankincense? Do you believe that when a soldier walked up to him and pierced his side, a dove ascended from him and such volumes of blood poured out that it extinguished the fire?
Do we not have to acknowledge legend making?
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25
Vid obsession
by punkofnice ini'm interested in your thoughts.. the media tells us a lot of agenda driven propaganda.
you're hard pressed to spot truth these days.. however, i'm told that the rona is now just a rotten flu and not the plague we were originally terrified in to believing.
last time i heard it was down in the hit parade to 16th nasty health thing.. all the people and family i know that have had the rona, have been complaining it's a very crappy flu.
-
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peacefulpete
So much disinformation is STILL being circulated. The Sars-cov-2 virus was a new virus that humans had not been exposed to. It was highly contagious and dangerous. The Sars-cov (1) virus of 2002 killed approximately 9% of those infected. The Sar-Cov-2 had a rate of serious illness about 10 times that of the unrelated flu virus. Mortality rates early on were between .5% and 1.5% mortality before we developed a more effective therapy for recovery. The unpredictable way people responded to exposure contributed to its spread and the dismissive reactions of some. While the medical profession scrambled to find therapies and equipment to deal with it, the best course was to limit the transmission rate and slow the curve to enable the worlds hospitals to keep up.
The vaccines were successful at reducing the viral load, and thereby lowering the risk of serious illness and transmission.
As all viruses (given the chance) do, it evolved into dozens of variants in the bodies of the infected. The variants that were more contagious spread faster and became dominant. Fortunately, and not inevitably, as the virus became more contagious it also became less dangerous to otherwise healthy people. The virus in some form is now endemic and will be with us for a long time. It's still advised we continue to wear a mask in indoor public settings for those who are not willing or able to get the vaccines and those who, like me, have cancer or other health issues that would be a complication to recovering from even the new variants.
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50
WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
I've pointed out that there was no witness only tradition asserted by those with motive.
I've also just noticed Papias (there in the quote by Eusebius) a contemporary of Polycarp claimed to have learned from those "who followed" the Apostles. That is also suggestive that the Polycarp legend is unlikely.
But moving on,... by your logic ought not the earliest interpretations of the apocalypse be the most persuasive?
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50
WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Peacefulpete, Polycarp knew John personally. This he shared with Irenaeus. Why would they lie?
Really? Polycarp never once says so in any of his writings, nor for that matter did he ever mention or quote from Revelation, a bit awkward if he was a student of the author. What's more, Irenaeus actually claimed only to have seen Polycarp as a young child. He never said he was told by Polycarp that he spoke with the apostle John. He only repeats that legend as circulating in Asia.
Polycarp would himself only been a tot when the Apostle John was a very old man (in exile on top of it according to tradition). What we have is legend building likely motivated by the claims of succession to church leadership.
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50
WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Vidqun, Since Justin never explained why he concluded the author was the same John as described as an apostle from the Gospel story it's hard to evaluate his judgement. How did he deal with the theological and linguistic differences clearly seen by others? However, if we are to conclude Justin's opinion on the matter is conclusive then ought we not regard his interpretation of the apocalypse as likewise authoritative? I doubt you do as his differs from yours most fundamentally
As to Irenaeus, he was said by Eusebius to have said that there was a "John also, the Lord's disciple, when beholding the sacerdotal and glorious advent of His kingdom, says in the Apocalypse:.". Although commonly this is assumed to be referring to the Apostle called John in the gospel, that is hardly certain. In the very context of the above quote, Irenaeus quoted repeatedly from the "gospel" attributed to the apostle John only to subsequently a few lines later introduce the "apocalypse" as a work by "John the Lords disciple". I find that a bit suggestive he understood the John who wrote the revelation as distinct from the gospel writer. He may also have simply used the term "disciple" as Eusebius (quoting Papias) otherwhere does in his Church History III:
4. If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders — what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that what was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from the living and abiding voice.
5. It is worth while observing here that the name John is twice enumerated by him. The first one he mentions in connection with Peter and James and Matthew and the rest of the apostles, clearly meaning the evangelist; but the other John he mentions after an interval, and places him among others outside of the number of the apostles, putting Aristion before him, and he distinctly calls him a presbyter.
6. This shows that the statement of those is true, who say that there were two persons in Asia that bore the same name, and that there were two tombs in Ephesus, each of which, even to the present day, is called John's. It is important to notice this. For it is probable that it was the second, if one is not willing to admit that it was the first that saw the Revelation, which is ascribed by name to John.
7. And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings. These things, we hope, have not been uselessly adduced by us.
Note John the Presbyter (Elder) as distinct from John the Apostle is included among the "disciples of the Lord" and called the author of the revelation.