MYOHNSEPH

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Posts by MYOHNSEPH

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  46

  Evolution vs. Creation (on Earth)

  by StinkyPantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i didn't necessarily start this thread as a debate but moreso as kind of a survey.

  i just wanna know what people think and a brief reason why.

  i want to know how you think life originated on the earth.

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  MYOHNSEPH

  Peacefulpete, with all due respect, I really don't think it's I who's missing the point here. Think about what you're saying for a moment. In essence you're saying that just about everything that happens in life is the net result of countless illions of improbable coincidences all converging at a given moment in time and space and that the astronomical improbability of it all does not, of itself alone, argue for the existence of some supernatural controling force. You're right! Of course it doesn't! But that scenario is nothing akin to the emergence of biological, intelligent life from nothing. While all of the countless incidents in your scenario were random and none deliberately designed and instigated to accomplish the ultimate result or end, each and every one of those incidents is the effect of a specific cause. Deliberate or not, designed or not, each component of your scenario is the result of mental and physical processes already in existence. You surely don't think that is comparable in probability to the emergence of a universe of uncomprehensible symetry, complexity and aparent purpose out of essentially nothing and without a specific cause!

  But let me just say a couple of more things. First, my perception of intelligence and design in the universe does not arbitrarily insinuate a belief in "God", in the traditional religious context. If there is indeed an entity, or entities, of intelligence and power involved in our being here, I seriously doubt he, she, they, it, would bear much resemblance to the common religious conceptions of "God".

  Secondly, what we're really discussing here is nothing more than probability. We all conduct our lives and make choices and decisions each day based on probabilities. I go to sleep each night confident the sun will rise tomorrow, based on the probability it will, but allowing for the possibility I might be wrong. My belief that intelligence and design are manifest in the universe is based on the probability of such being the case, from my assessment and finite understanding of the evidence. However, I also allow for the possibility I may be wrong. There is simply too much we don't know, to be to closed-minded and dogmatic about what we think we do know.
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  46

  Evolution vs. Creation (on Earth)

  by StinkyPantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i didn't necessarily start this thread as a debate but moreso as kind of a survey.

  i just wanna know what people think and a brief reason why.

  i want to know how you think life originated on the earth.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  MYOHNSEPH

  "we are the product of unique and many varied events each day taking place yet none of those events alone appear to be miraculous so we do not typically attribute each day to the work of supernatural forces."

  Peacefulpete, our lives are indeed affected and influenced each day by countless incidents which have not been anticipated, are not by design and are certainly not miraculous. However, a great deal of what constitutes our lives each day is by design and/or the result of conscious decisions made by ourselves, or others, or the cat or even the spider. But we know the difference, don't we! Having a degree of inteligence, we are able to discern between accidently stepping on the cat's tail and deliberately doing so. How? Because we set criteria for the things we see and experience in life and we generally know the difference between that which has intent and purpose and that which does not. Remember the movie "Contact"? The radio signals which were intercepted from outer space were judged to be of intelligent origin, because they met the criteria for design and intelligence. Of course that was just fiction, but the principle is a most valid and scientifically accepted one. So the question is: Do the principles or laws of physics which have brought mankind and the universe to it's magnificent present state meet the criteria for intelligence and design? To my mind, the answer is yes.
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  46

  Evolution vs. Creation (on Earth)

  by StinkyPantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i didn't necessarily start this thread as a debate but moreso as kind of a survey.

  i just wanna know what people think and a brief reason why.

  i want to know how you think life originated on the earth.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  MYOHNSEPH

  "Yes if things like water acted differently things would be different. We would not be here but something would be. These arguements always presuppose that we are here intentionally when there is only our ego to suggest this."

  With all due respect, this seems to be the perspective of a forgone conclusion that we are not here intentionally. I can accept that as one possibility, but rather than "these arguements" presupposing that we are here intentionally, to my mind they strongly suggest that to be the case. If we set aside the issue of evolution vs. creation, creator vs. no creator, take religion completely out of the picture and just look objectively at the mechanics at work here and the practical result, it's really difficult for me to see how anyone would conclude that there is no intent or purpose manifest here. I don't think we typically use that kind of rationale in other issues we encounter in life. Other than the presumption that the universe is here purely by accident, what is there, specifically, about any of the countless processes that foster and sustain life that would suggest to an un-indoctrinated mind that it is all random and without intent or purpose?
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  46

  Evolution vs. Creation (on Earth)

  by StinkyPantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i didn't necessarily start this thread as a debate but moreso as kind of a survey.

  i just wanna know what people think and a brief reason why.

  i want to know how you think life originated on the earth.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  MYOHNSEPH

  "The laws are simple, and it is therefore more reasonable to conclude that they happened randomly,"

  Say what?! These "laws" govern everything from how one ant knows another one is in trouble to the processes of nuclear fission to processes we haven't begun to understand yet. And they're "simple"?! Well, help me out, if you will, with one ver "simple" example:

  When water cools, like almost everything else we know about, it condenses, it gets heavier. In a large body of water, in very cold regions, surface water will sink as it cools, displacing the warmer water, which in turn will cool and sink until the entire body of water is about 4 degrees centegrade. But as the surface water continues to cool below 4 degrees and toward freezing, the process reverses. It begins to expand, it's specific gravity decreases, it gets lighter and as ice forms it floats instead of sinking. Now ain't that interesting! Especially for something that just happened "randomly", an accident! Can you imagine what would happen to far northern lakes and oceans and all the life in them, were it not for that "simple" little quirk of "nature"!

  Help me out here, funkyderek. Enlighten me. Help me understand how the laws governing this process is so "simple" and why "it is therefore more reasonable to conclude that they happened randomly".
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  15

  What's your quote for the New Year?

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "we turn not older with years, but newer every day.".

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  - emily dickinson

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  MYOHNSEPH

  "Never attribute to malice, that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." Robert Heinlein
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  9

  Whoring Around !!!

  by zev in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it has been aledeged by a jw on the aol boards that the wtbts does not use the word "whore".

  first thing i thought when i heard this is, "oh yes they do, i heard it said from the stage at assemblies"!

  well a quick search of their cd-rom brings a host of references to the great "whore".

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  MYOHNSEPH

  Well, WHOE! WHOE! WHOE! and a happy new year to all!
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  46

  Evolution vs. Creation (on Earth)

  by StinkyPantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i didn't necessarily start this thread as a debate but moreso as kind of a survey.

  i just wanna know what people think and a brief reason why.

  i want to know how you think life originated on the earth.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  MYOHNSEPH

  I don't pretend to even be close to sorting all this out, but a few things seem pretty obvious to me. First of all, mankind has only begun to scratch the surface in understanding and comprehending the complexity of the universe. I can't get around the fact that, where ever you look, that complexity appears to be by design and purpose, which to my mind says, inteligence. To say that everything we see or know about has come about purely by some blind accident, belies every thread of logic I can muster. I can't think of anything else we might encounter in life, to which one would apply that same sort of reasoning.

  So, does that mean I believe "God" created it all? For any answer to that question to mean anything, one would first have to define who or what "God" is. I can't bring myself to believe that the entity described in the Bible is anything more than the perception of some supreme diety, held in the minds of certain ancient peoples. I'm not convinced a "God", as defined in any traditional religeous context, actually exists. However, the evidence of inteligence and purpose in what we commonly term "creation", certainly can't be ignored. Even the doctrine of "natural selection" implies a rational purpose to the evolutionary process. So, the idea that we, and the universe, have arrived at our present state through an evolutionary process, designed and initiated by an entity of inteligence and power, seems quite possible and rational to me. As far as whether or not, or to what extent, that entity would take an active interest in the everyday affairs mankind, individually or as a whole, I really don't have the foggiest idea.

  But, that's just me!
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  26

  Best wishes for 2003

  by animal in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i leave thursday, back on the road for work.

  i won"t be around much again and will miss all but the fluffy threads, since they stay on top.

  i hope to meet up with viv and her bf, plum and her hubby(?

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  MYOHNSEPH

  All the very best to you, Animal, and to each one of you on this board, for the coming year. What do I want to do in the coming year? To laugh more at myself and less at others, keep my mind as open and stress-free as possible, (and as practical,) embrace as fully as I can the grand freedom of just being myself and try not to get in the way of anyone else trying to do the same. Whatever else we all may, or may not, have in common, we are all of the brotherhood of man and each of us has a right to our own little space on this ball, physically and philosophically, so long as we are willling to grant that same right to each of our brothers and sisters.

  One more thing: I've got to find more time to ride, while I can still see the handlebars!

  Happy 2003 everyone!
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  106

  How do I know the Bible is True?

  by SwedishChef in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  how do i know the bible is true?

  by thomas schaff.

  external evidence.

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  MYOHNSEPH

  "Many people benefit just by reading (and not necessarily participating in) the discussions and making up their own minds from looking at the arguments of both sides."

  Good point, rem!

  Carry on!
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  106

  How do I know the Bible is True?

  by SwedishChef in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  how do i know the bible is true?

  by thomas schaff.

  external evidence.

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  MYOHNSEPH

  "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," and, sadly, more often than not, so is truth. (Or should I say, the perception of truth.) None of you folks really believe your going to convince any of the other folks here of anything they don't already believe, do you?