TheUbermensch

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Posts by TheUbermensch

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  107

  The Beatles - Your Favorite Songs or Albums from Them ?

  by flipper in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  folks !

  thought i'd start another music thread up to see what your favorite picks are !

  one of my all time favorite groups .

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  TheUbermensch

  The Hard Day's Night album is one of the catchiest pop albums of all time, and the movie isn't bad either.

  Favorite Songs

  If I Fell

  Tell Me Why

  Can't Buy Me Love

  I don't really dig late Beatles.
• 
  1495

  An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

  that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

  still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

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• 

  TheUbermensch

  I keep hearing how atheists or non believers have a different "view" and that the actual, logical facts that they provide are just "viewpoints".

  I can say the sky is blue. That is a fact accepted by the general population, however, if someone says that the sky is green, that doesn't stray from the truth, and that is that the sky is blue. Just because someone refuses scientifically, logically proven truth and believes their "viewpoint" that doesn't mean that you can drag down the fact to your level and call it a "viewpoint".

  The sad thing is that the reason all of these arguments exist is because of religion. What would motivate atheists or non believers to argue with believers? It's simple, for me at least it's because I'd rather live in a society of human beings who can face reality (and thus make better more important decisions, and also not have their mind focused on a delusional religion) rather than in a society where these people are a minority as we do now. Why do believers argue? To defend their God from the constant onslaught of logical proofs, scientific evidence and ancient fossils and artifacts that continually and further disprove their sacred holy books. The fact that Christians have to constantly be on the defense is (to me) just more proof that there is something incorrect concerning their religion or beliefs. Most things that are held to be true and real (gravity for example) are NOT under constant onslaught of opposing ideas, and yet religions are (and their members hold their religion to be so true).

  What arguments can religion use to prove god?

  Why is there something rather than nothing? That's a pretty famous one used by theists of every belief. Of course it's an argument against themselves because they aren't actually assuming there once was nothing. To them there was always something, and that is their deity, and this begs the question that who created their deity?

  They also are usually on the offensive concerning evolution. They try to poke holes in evolutionary theory and the fossil record. Of course they deny physical proof, and refuse to accept the truth (and fact) that evolution was/is/ and will happen forever until the end of species on Earth.

  When Christians are faced with opposition they only make excuses because there ISN'T a factual answer concerning any of these opposing proofs. There isn't anything that will ever satisfy us non-believers because we strive for facts and physical evidence (something that religion can't provide us with). For non-believers it's very frustrating, and sometimes depressing that so many human beings believe what they do, and then act out on it with whatever form of force (aggressive or passive) they deem fit. Millions of people have been killed over something as simple and stupid as religion, millions of people will die due to religion in the future.

  However, we are reaching a time where we will be able to disprove the Bible, the Quran, and every other religious book that has ever been written by simply using the scientific method, and hard, physical proof. And that day, my friends, will be one of the most beautiful, consciousness lifting, cloud clearing days in the history of human kind.
• 
  1495

  An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

  that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

  still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheUbermensch

  Copy text to the reply box for your reply before formatting quote Put the cursor at the beginning of the quoted text and select the Styles drop box. Select Quote. Presto Selecting Quote or Styles again to remove quote format The " button just indents

  Thanks!
• 
  1495

  An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

  that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

  still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheUbermensch

  Totally meant to quote that but I failed miserably. aha.
• 
  1495

  An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

  that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

  still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheUbermensch

  I think you're mistaken, dear Q (again, peace to you!). It is a FACT that many of these never SAW disease... until the Europeans arrived. Before that, either childbirth, starvation, exposure, poisoning, or wild animals were the cause of death. However, for all of the lives modern technology has saved, you cannot rule out all of the ones lost... via wars, coups, genocides, biological experimentations (either direct or indirect), industrial/vehicular/carrier accidents, pharmaceuticals/tobacco products, etc., ALL contrived, derived, controlled, sold, and the result of... man. Seriously...

  Yes, the biggest killers of all... wars, coups, and genocides. Wars caused by religion, coups by certain militant religious groups, and genocides of entire religions by other religions. These types of war, and these types of aggression are the ones that kill the most. Read the Old Testament, and find all the genocides, war, and coups that God instructed his people to act out.
• 
  1495

  An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

  that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

  still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheUbermensch

  The fact that one can acknowledge that he doesn't know why his extremely loving, peace giving deity allows evil just points more towards lunacy. Why worship him? It's just pure stubborness.

  To give an example that a very famous scientist/evolutionist put forth... how is it acceptable that there are billions of people on the Earth and those billions of people are all in thousands of different sects of hundreds of different religions? How has that become acceptable to our societies? Imagine if you take every region where there is a majority that practices one religion and substitute it with individual groups of scientists in certain regions that have different theories on why the dinosaurs died. Imagine that everyone in the Middle East believed there was an ice age that we don't know about, and in Eastern Europe people believe that they still exist, and so on. It's absolutely ridiculous, that would never happen, it would never be acceptable in the scientific world. And yet, in the world we find it so acceptable that people believe different religions all over the world. Not only that but your religion is either based on where you were geographically born or what your parents believe. All or most of you are ex Jehovah's Witnesses. A cult that indoctrinates children at a young age, puts forth mounds of lies but is believed by many. You find out how fake the religion is and then go on to ANOTHER religion that indoctrinates children, puts forth lies, etc. It's no better, and yet you find yourselves to be so self righteous in your beliefs that you ignore plausible, valid, logical arguments that completely disprove the existence of your deity, that you create excuses, or just flat out admit that you don't know why he does certain things. It's horrible, and depressing that your rational mind is so clouded by your religious mind that you completely ignore or just deny it.

  Children are indoctrinated into religions around the world on a daily basis. This is the only way that religion continues. Because of the sponge that our mind is when we are young we are inbred with an instinct to completely deny anything that goes against what we believe.

  Psac, you admitted that you have no idea why God permits evil to occur, and you find that acceptable? Scientists admit that they don't know for sure how the universe came to being, but they actually can work on finding the truth. Your knowledge will never be filled, you will never know the answer to why God permits evil. Never. And yet you continue to believe in something that can never give you all the answers. I just don't understand it.
• 
  1495

  An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

  that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

  still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheUbermensch

  Unfortunately you haven't countered the fact.

  You've given me two examples of "views" that are outside the views expressed by the Bible. Views expressed and idealized by mankind.

  Your arguments answer no questions, your arguments create arguments against yourself.

  For instance, if free will exists then the 3 conceptions of God (being perfectly good, knowing all, being all powerful) are impossible. Those traits would not allow a creator to instill the idea of free will into his creations. It's a perfectly valid, simple, and logical idea.

  Anyways, me having the lack of belief in God, my job is not to give you evidence of God's nonexistence. You believing in God makes you the one who needs to provide me with evidence, and you have yet to do so.
• 
  1495

  An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

  that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

  still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheUbermensch

  Well, to be fair, most contemporary Christians ignore the Old Testament, I was stating an argument against modern Christianity's God which is usually a loving God.

  However, if we are wrong about the loving quality of God then could we possibly be wrong about other qualities? And who would wish to worship the God of the Old Testament? " The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Dawkins.

  And if God isn't perfectly good it goes back to

  A person is justified in believing that X does not exist if

  (1) all the available evidence used to support the view that X exists is shown to be inadequate; and

  (2) X is the sort of entity that, if X exists, then there is a presumption that would be evidence adequate to support the view that X exists; and

  (3) this presumption has not been defeated although serious efforts have been made to do so; and

  (4) the area where evidence would appear, if there were any, has been comprehensively examined; and

  (5) there are no acceptable beneficial reasons to believe that X exists
• 
  1495

  An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

  that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

  still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheUbermensch

  That is not a view, that is a logical fact.

  1. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
  2. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
  3. An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
  4. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.

  That is a fact with definitions set in stone.

  You have YET to answer this.

  God is all knowing.

  God is all powerful.

  God is perfectly good.

  Evil exists.

  Unsubstantial evil exists as well, evil without a purpose.

  You have given me "yes, but"s but not "no, it's this way"s.

  If you have to make that many exceptions (outside of the proposed idea and definition of God) to believe in a God you have just as much reason to worship the wind.

  "Why does the wind blow to the West?"

  "Because it is the Earth's choice to turn to the East and thus air goes to the opposite, it is all the Earth's choice"

  "Yes but when the wind blows to the West people die, why would that happen?"

  "The wind has a plan that we can't possibly understand"

  "Then why worship it?"

  "...."
• 
  1495

  An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

  that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

  still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TheUbermensch

  He is all knowing.

  He knows everything, otherwise he can not be considered to know everything.

  He is all powerful.

  He can do anything, stop anything, create anything, otherwise he can not be considered to be all powerful.

  He is perfectly good.

  He can not be bad, he is full of every virtue, compassion, love, etc.

  He knows about the suffering. He can stop the suffering. Being perfectly good he WOULD stop the suffering. Suffering exists. This is a logical inconsistency.

  You want a standard for evil? Animal abuse, genocide, and torture are moral examples of evil that happen on a daily basis. Volcanic eruptions, forest fires started by natural occurences like a bolt of lightning or dry weather, are natural examples of evil.

  We are talking about pointless evil. What good does beating a horse do for God?

  1. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
  2. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
  3. An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
  4. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.

  We can even get into Rowe's Evidential Problem of Evil

  1. There exist instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
  2. An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
  3. (Therefore) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being. (Rowe 1979: 336)

     E1: the case of Bambi
     “In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering” (Rowe 1979: 337).

     E2: the case of Sue
     This is an actual event in which a five-year-old girl in Flint, Michigan was severely beaten, raped and then strangled to death early on New Year’s Day in 1986. The case was introduced by Bruce Russell (1989: 123), whose account of it, drawn from a report in the Detroit Free Press of January 3 1986, runs as follows:

     The girl’s mother was living with her boyfriend, another man who was unemployed, her two children, and her 9-month old infant fathered by the boyfriend. On New Year’s Eve all three adults were drinking at a bar near the woman’s home. The boyfriend had been taking drugs and drinking heavily. He was asked to leave the bar at 8:00 p.m. After several reappearances he finally stayed away for good at about 9:30 p.m. The woman and the unemployed man remained at the bar until 2:00 a.m. at which time the woman went home and the man to a party at a neighbor’s home. Perhaps out of jealousy, the boyfriend attacked the woman when she walked into the house. Her brother was there and broke up the fight by hitting the boyfriend who was passed out and slumped over a table when the brother left. Later the boyfriend attacked the woman again, and this time she knocked him unconscious. After checking the children, she went to bed. Later the woman’s 5-year old girl went downstairs to go to the bathroom. The unemployed man returned from the party at 3:45 a.m. and found the 5-year old dead. She had been raped, severely beaten over most of her body and strangled to death by the boyfriend.

     (P) No good state of affairs we know of is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being’s permitting E1 or E2. Therefore,

     (Q) It is likely that no good state of affairs is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being in permitting E1 or E2.