Posts by matt2414

8

Following their own rules, Should the Governing Body be disfellowshipped for decades of misleading the flock and thus tainting Gods name without any evidence of repentance?

by matt2414 in

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matt2414

I was wondering about that too. Following the Governing Body's own doctrine, haven't the Governing Body members, in effect, disassociated themselves from God and the Christian congregation by their actions, much like one who goes to war or takes blood? Of course, since their lies started so long ago, it makes me wonder if they were truly ever part God's Christian congregation.

I couldn't help but think of Daniel 12:9-10:

9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand."

If we are in the time of the end, as the Witnesses claim, and the GB isn't able to understand the Scriptures, isn't it logical to conclude that they are the "wicked" these verses refer to? No wonder God has left them to flail in the wind without spiritual guidance!

8

Following their own rules, Should the Governing Body be disfellowshipped for decades of misleading the flock and thus tainting Gods name without any evidence of repentance?

by matt2414 in

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matt2414

Thanks for fixing it. :)

8

Following their own rules, Should the Governing Body be disfellowshipped for decades of misleading the flock and thus tainting Gods name without any evidence of repentance?

by matt2414 in

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matt2414

I was wondering about this because I don’t ever recall reading an apology from the Governing Body when it feels the need to change its understanding of scripture. I mean, has the Governing Body ever issued an apology to God and their fellow Jehovah’s Witnesses – begging for forgiveness – for the many errors in Bible doctrine that they want others to believe and insist came from God? We’ve all read their glaring mistakes on doctrine:

Millions now living will never die
Supposed dates when the end would come
The timing of the end of the gentile times
Timing of Christ’s inspection
When and how Christ would return
Identifying the superior authorities
Declaring who will come back in the resurrection
The use of the word “minister”
The use of blood, and later, blood fractions
This generation
Condemning the United Nations while being members of that organization
Teachings regarding the anointed, little flock and great crowd
Identifying faithful and discreet slave
Inventing a “Governing Body”
And the list goes on and on

But have they ever said they are sorry for their hundreds of public talks, Watchtower studies, assembly and convention parts, and books that promoted these teachings, only to have them change later? Has the Watchtower ever printed an apology? Have they ever admitted that the information they preached – and threatened with disfellowshipping those who refused to believe – was merely made up, and that God isn’t to blame? Or have they instead insidiously suggested that GOD IS to blame because he gave them light, “light that gets brighter and brighter” (Prov. 4:18)? Since it is “impossible for God to lie” (Heb. 6:18), are they not calling God a liar by twisting that verse in Proverbs, thus tainting God’s “holy” name? Aren’t they just like the Pharisees and other religious leaders in Jesus’ day whom he condemned for lording it over the flock (Matt. 9:36) with their myriad laws and teachings?

Many Jehovah’s Witnesses seem intelligent. Don’t they ever wonder about these things?

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

It's quite obvious to those who approach the Bible without being tainted by prejudice that God created homosexuality, and therefore it is not a sin. As Romans 1:20 says, God's invisible qualities are evident in his human and animal creations. Homosexuality exists in both. In animals it is considered quite natural, and not a sin. No doubt God intended the same for humans. Those who take it upon themselves to judge and declare it a sin are in effect calling God a sinner and the creator of sin.

This reminds me of when Peter presumpteously assumed certain animals were unclean, in an effort to please God. God scolded him at Act 10:15: “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” Unlike that situation, the issue of homosexuality is more serious. The Witnesses, like most homophobes, have destroyed families, lives, leading even some young people to suicide. Their hands drip with innocent blood.

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

mP:

You make some good points about the prevalence of same-sex behavior in Bible times, which is well documented. However, many uninformed people tend to equate that behavior with homosexuality. That couldn't be further from the truth. Many of the men in ancient times who practiced such same-sex behavior were married to women. Recent research has shown that less than 4% of the U.S. population is gay. But reports have shown that between 10%-13% of men who identify as straight admit to having occasional same-sex enounters. Yes, there are actually more straight people engaging in same-sex activity than gays! This may come as a surprise to many, but just peruse Craigslist and see how many straight or married individuals are seeking a same-sex encounter. This doesn't make them gay, anymore than if a gay person having heterosexual relations would be straight. Most men in prisons are straight and yet their same-sex activities are pretty well known. It's likely the percentages were similar in ancient times.

So when the OT says that men should "not lie with a man as one lies with a woman," to whom were these words actually directed? To straight men or gay men? And why are the words "men who lie with men" almost always given in the context of worshipping false gods? Just read the surrounding verses and chapters and see. Until religious homophobes can answer these questions, they are being awfully presumptuous and really have no idea what they are talking about. The Governing Body is especially guilty of such ignorance and wrecklessness with the Bible because they claim to be God's anointed mouthpiece.

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

mP, it does seem like many homophobes are homosexuals. But to qualify that statement, I believe most homosexuals who are homophobes are religious or have some perverse view of God. I think they are this way because A) they feel they have to prove themselves worthy to their god; B) they are afraid of being outed so they overemphasize their disdain toward gays; and C) they are self loathing because they know that they are secretly fantacizing or even practicing homosexual behavior, and are afraid of being exposed.

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

Open Mind, that WT-apologist hat is more like a dunce cap. Many of those arguments don't hold water.

Gen. 3:17-18 does say that God "cursed the ground." But the context says: "Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you shall eat the plants of the field." Most bible scholars agree that this was referring to the land the first couple were living on. It would no longer easily produce a bounty for them; they would have to work very hard to get the ground to produce food. The Bible text has nothing to do with their physiology, much less sexuality.
Besides, if JW's even suggest that God's curse caused imperfection, they are admitting that God caused all the so-called sin that exists today -- murder, stealing, drunkenness, fornication, and in their minds, homosexuality. They would in effect be blaming God. Isn't that called blasphemy?
By the way, the many thousands of plants and animals around the world didn't participate in Adam's sin, yet, how come plants can be heterosexual and bisexual. Since the 1990's, we've also come to learn that there are hundreds -- and the list is getting longer -- of animals that exhibit both bisexual and homosexual behavior. Who's responsible for this? The Watchtower and Awake! frequently praises the amazing design of these creations. Everything they do, even if done instinctively, is because of "Jehovah's design." It would be the height of hyprocrisy for them to backtrack now and say that God is not responsible for their actions. If God did create animals with the ability to enjoy same-sex unions, that would mean he created homosexuality. Is it much of a leap that he would create the same ability in humans?
It's true, "God made booze and sex for humans to enjoy, per the Bible." However, there is a big difference between booze and sex. God put in humans -- all animals, really -- the strong need and desire for air, food, water and sex. As humans, we need all of them to survive or we will die off as a species. To varying degrees, our bodies will fight us to have these needs satisfied. Yes, some of us may enjoy alcohol, but nowhere does the Bible say alcohol is necessary for the human race to survive. Some people may crave it, much like others may crave chocolate, but those desires are just that, cravings. To compare the desire for sex with the craving for alcohol reveals a the gross ignorance and stupity on the part of the Witnesses' Governing Body.
And if gays are taking sexual "desires and twisting them so that they are no longer acceptable to God," then why didn't Jesus come right out and say it, "Homosexuality is not acceptable to God"? Nowhere does he say it or even hint that homosexuality is wrong. When he mentioned Sodom he instead said, "Remember the wife of Lot." Was she a lesbian? There's no indication that she was. Sure, there may not have been a word for homosexual in the Bible languages, but it was quite well known and practiced among both the Greeks and Romans. Even Emporor Nero is said to have married men, twice. So why didn't Jesus address the matter if it was so common? He instead said, at John 13:34: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

People born now are 6,000 years away from Adamic "perfection". Therefore we have people with a predisposition towards homosexuality and those who are susceptible to alcoholism.

This teaching of the Watchtower is nothing but a steaming pile of hooey. It is so flawed, I don't even know where to begin.

If God is perfect, and his creation of man and all life was "very good," how did homosexuality and all the other so called flaws enter the human race so quickly? Humans have made things that have lasted centuries, if not thousands of years, (think of the pyramids of Egypt) without any radical changes and flaws. So why did human life degrade so quickly, in just a few generations? Adam may have sinned but there's no evidence he tampered with human genetics. Even if God did remove his holy spirit from Adam, things shouldn't just fall apart, especially so quickly.
The idea that we have become more damaged or we've changed because we are 6,000 years away from Adam's perfection is really an admission that we have evolved! Humans have evolved to the point that we now have same-sex relationships that can be happy and wholesome, while not adding unnecesarily to out-of-control population growth. Isn't the Governing Body's argument about being 6,000 years away from Adam really admitting that evolution does exist?
Comparing homosexuality to alcoholism is also flawed. There is no scriptural basis for believing that God created in humans a desire for alcohol or alcohol dependency. However, the Bible does indicate that the human desire for love, companionship and even sex are God-given. Why would he give homosexuals these strong, innate desires and then expect them not to fulfill them, especially when 95%+ of the humans around them ARE satisfying them? What kind of loving God would do something so hateful?

The Witnesses like to boast that they survived the atrocities of Hitler. They often forget to mention that homosexuals were also in Hitler's concentration camps, alongside the Jews. During World War II, the Nazi Party tried to purge homosexuals and homosexuality from Germany. As we now know, he failed. So why do the Witnesses continue with Hitler's crusade by trying eradicate homosexuals from their organization? Would a loving God, especially one who is concerned about his name, even want to be associated with such an organization?

By their myriad reprehensible actions, the Governing Body and those who goose step with them demonstrate that they are deserving of Hitler's fate. Perhaps one day, they will merely be a footnote in history.

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

The remaining question presents itself, how does something that is genetically created in humans become something that is recognized to be a sin?

Why not blindness, mental retardation and all the other genetic abnormalities that does occur in human procreation?

Finkestein, those are good questions. But actually, it's not much different from the way lepers were treated in Bible times. Through no fault of their own, lepers were treated as outcasts, less than human, but that obviously was not what God had intended. What about the way blacks have been treated by people who thought they were following the Bible? And don't even get me started on the way women have been and continue to be treated? All people who had no choice as to how they were born. Would a loving God really be this inhumane and heartless? Aren't the real sinners those who try to "lord it over" others, subverting God's authority?

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

15 One brother who was raised in a Christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies. He said: “I always felt awkward. It seemed that I didn’t fit in anywhere.” By age 20, he had become a regular pioneer and was a ministerial servant in the congregation. Then he stumbled badly, was Scripturally disciplined, and received help from the elders. By praying, studying God’s Word, and focusing on helping others, he picked himself up and resumed his spiritual pace. Years later, he admits: “At times I still have those feelings, but I don’t let them overtake me. I have learned that Jehovah will not let you be tempted beyond what you can handle." (WT 3/15/13 Page 6)

For years the Governing Body has been blaming homosexuality on environmental elements. Even the Young People Ask, Volume 2, book blames "permissive attitudes" and the way homosexuality is so "talked about" openly as causes for its spread. So how do they explain the above example where a brother was "raised in a Christian household" and struggled with homosexual tendencies "as long as he could remember"? Most Witness kids are rather isolated from the world, spending much time going to meetings and door-to-door proselytizing. So how did this guy "turn" gay, when there are so many "worldy" kids raised around gay culture who end up straight?

Isn't the Watchtower all but admitting that people are born gay? This guy felt that way "as long as he could remember." Most kids can remember back to age 3 or 4. That means he knew something was different about himself even before he could understand anything about sex and sexuality. And even with all the Witness indoctrination and mind control he says, "I still have those feelings." In other words, he is being made to detest and abhor the way God made him -- even though God made him so wonderfully (Psalm 139:14) -- so he can live the way the Governing Body wants him to. He has to live a lie, to accept their "truth."