Posts by ScenicViewer

53

Display of National Flags in Kingdom Halls in Chile: WTS' Response

by BluesBrother in

remember this and other threads a few months back, on the subject that some kingdom halls in chile acquiesced to govt rules that every building should display the national flag on the day of celebration?.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/262505/kingdom-hall-chile-has-national-flag?size=20&page=1.

many of us here and around the net, calling on our dub experiences cried "never would that happen!

ScenicViewer

I wonder how long it would take for the elders to show up if a JW flew a flag at his house.

53

Display of National Flags in Kingdom Halls in Chile: WTS' Response

by BluesBrother in

remember this and other threads a few months back, on the subject that some kingdom halls in chile acquiesced to govt rules that every building should display the national flag on the day of celebration?.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/262505/kingdom-hall-chile-has-national-flag?size=20&page=1.

many of us here and around the net, calling on our dub experiences cried "never would that happen!

ScenicViewer

TTATTelder: What happened to not stumbling others?

Very good observation.
Also, we have been told that appearances matter, and Christians should always avoid the appearance of wrong doing.
So, it's clear that the rules apply only to individual witnesses, not to the Watchtower organization itself. Yes, what hypocrisy.

111

Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

by Chaserious in

with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

ScenicViewer

Obviously, any JWs claiming they don't have this problem as bad as the Catholic Church are very wrong.

to Gayle!

Thanks for the information re the Wilson Elser law firm. People that count are watching!

38

What is the main reason the Watchtower Society baptize their children so young?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

jesus was thirty was he was baptized.

today, you hear of young children getting baptized as young as 10 years old.

the parents, family and congregation think it's a wonderful idea that someone dedicates their life to jehovah at such a young age.

ScenicViewer

insidetheKH said: ...you forget that at the time that Jesus walked the earth John the Baptist just started with baptising people.

What does that have to do with anything? Scriptural answer please.

furthermore billions of people (in other denominations that consider themselves christian) are baptised right after they are born

Again, how is that relevant? Watchtower's baptism of children is much closer to the infant baptisms of the Catholic Church than to the fully adult baptisms of the Bible.

Anyway the main reason is,... WHY NOT baptise Teens? We let them make career and education choices that influence them the rest of their lifes at that age so why not the choice to serve Jehovah?

Why not? Because it's not Bible based, and JWs claim to follow the Bible to the letter. Don't overlook the good responses of previous posters which show that career and education choices are not nearly as heavy as the choice to get baptised.

there are biblical examples of young people who make a stand for Jehovah,.. Samuel did, David did,.. Jesus did, to name a few

Yes, they "made a stand for Jehovah," but making a stand wasn't the question, getting baptised was. Jesus may have made a stand at a young age, but he was baptised when he was 30.

It appears you have answered the question about child baptism with what makes sense to JWs, which is meaningless since many things have been proved wrong that made sense to them in the past.

Remember an admission that Watchtower has had to make regarding things that made sense at the time but turned out to be wrong.

"With varying degrees of success, they endeavored to avoid being dogmatic about details not directly stated in the Scriptures." (Proclaimers book, p135)

That response in itself is very slippery because it relates to Watchtower's teachings of 1925 which included HUGE false prophecies, most of which have been completely whitewashed by JWs, but at least they admitted they should stick with things that are "directly stated in the Scriptures."

So let's do that here. What are the Scriptural reasons for baptising children?

111

Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

by Chaserious in

with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

ScenicViewer

I should have mentioned that Campos abused Lopez, age 7 at the time, in 1986. According to the news report linked above, Campos became an elder in 1993, about 7 years after the abuse happened.

Putting the information together, if Campos was 'disqualified for many years' from being an elder, then in Watchtower thinking 'many years' is about 7 years.

111

Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

by Chaserious in

with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

ScenicViewer

Nitty-Gritty said: The facts are that child molesters will never be able to serve in any capacity ever.

This is of interest to me. Do you have a source for this remark? Is it in Watchtower publications? Any references would be appreciated.

The information I have seen til now suggests the opposite is true, that child molesters can become servants or elders later on.

I. The current Elder's Manual, if I'm reading it correctly, says it's possible for a known child molester to become an elder. Notice the last sentence of par 20 below.

"For example, the sin may involve past child abuse, and this would likely disqualify him for many years."

So a known child molester could be disqualified from being an elder for "many years," but not permanently, and only "likely" so at that, not definitely so.

II. This is what happened in the recent legal case of victim Jose Lopez, handled by Irwin Zalkin, who was molested by Gonzalo Campos.

The information below is according to the U-T San Diego online newspaper. Complete article is here,

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/oct/31/jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-judgment-lopez/

After Lopez reported the molestation to his mother she approached the elders. Then the article says,

"According to trial evidence, the church judicial committee looked into the allegations and found that Campos was repentant. It monitored his behavior for a period of nine months but did not expel him from the church.

"In fact, Campos went on to rise through the ranks of the church, continuing to teach Bible studies to young children and ultimately becoming an elder in 1993. At one point he left the Linda Vista congregation and moved to one in La Jolla. He was ultimately kicked out of the church in 1995, after another victim surfaced, but was reinstated in 2000, court records show." (By Christina Davis, Oct 31, 2014) Highlighting added.

Granted, news papers can get facts wrong, but if this is accurate it illustrates what the Elder's Manual says, and Campos became an elder after being a known molester.

Again, any references to support your remark that this can't happen would be appreciated.

24

Emblem Takers Mentally Unstable?

by Cold Steel in

onthewayout wrote: of course, for quite awhile (and probably still), congregations have been viewing any relatively young (maybe under 50 or even 60) partakers as mentally unstable and watchtower ignores such people anyway and says they must listen to the elders.

is this correct?

ever since the emblem-takers were given emeritus status as members of the faithful and discreet slave, have they been relegated to standard membership?

ScenicViewer

We represent the faithful slave:

"... Governing Body, which represents "the faithful and discreet slave." -- W 6-15-09, p.24

contrast with:

But we we don't talk to them, know them or give a flying fig who they are:

"The Governing Body...does not consult with... does not maintain a global network of anointed ones." -- w8/15/2011

Now that's funny.

You would think the FDS would appoint it's own representitive, but since the GB never knew those who make up the FDS how could the GB have been appointed by the FDS; the GB is in effect saying "we never knew you" to the Slave, but we appoint ourselves to represent you.

The truth is, the GB was always self-appointed in claiming to be the FDS' rep.

Of course this has all changed now, since the GB claims to be, not just the representitive of the FDS, but the FDS itself!

The new move may have eliminated the above problem of the GB having to actually know who they are representing, but it simply escalated their self-appointment to a higher level, and it makes the GB even more arrogant now than before.

47

What is the point of the picture in this weeks study article ?

by stuckinarut2 in

i don't understand the relevance of the first picture in this weeks study article?!?!.

wt week of december 15-21 "cherish your privilege of working with jehovah".

can someone post the pic?.

ScenicViewer

Island Man: By putting this image so prominently in an article entitled: "Cherish your privilege of working with Jehovah", the GB hopes to impress even more on the minds of JWs, the importance of voluntaring on such construction projects, thus increasing Watchtower's free construction labor force. Watchtower wants JWs to see such work as being equally important as going door to door

How true.

The article promotes volunteering to work on various WTS construction projects, from building/renovating a local KH, assembly hall, or branch facility, to building the World HQ complex. Witnesses who volunteer are pumped up with pride by being said to be...

- honored by Jehovah

- a fellow worker of Jehovah

- glorifying Jehovah

- the equal of Moses and Noah, who also volunteered

- accepting a cherished privilege

- taking part in sacred service

- an obedient human

-a part of God's organization

Paragraph 7 sums up the intent of the article very well, including a reference to the opening picture.

"7 You will agree that it is amazing that Jehovah has invited imperfect humans to have the honor of serving as his fellow workers. (1 Cor. 3:9) Those who are involved in building Assembly Halls, Kingdom Halls, and branch facilities are taking part in a physical building program, as did Noah and Moses. Whether you are working to renovate a local Kingdom Hall or to build our world headquarters at Warwick, New York, cherish your privilege to serve in this way. (See opening image for artist’s rendering.) It is sacred service. However, for the most part, Christians are invited to engage in a spiritual building program. It too is designed to glorify Jehovah and to benefit obedient humans. (Acts 13:47-49) Appropriate direction on how best to do this work is provided through God’s organization. This may at times mean being given new assignments of work." (W, Oct 2014 Study Edition, article: Cherish Your Privelege of Working With Jehovah)

Most of the other photographs are slanted toward making the reader believe they are part of God's great work (preaching the Good News) if they are volunteering free labor to build Watchtower's facilities. (Is that literature cart parked in front of a building project underway? If so, it's the most obvious tie-in of the construction work to the preaching work.)

A question is raised by all of this. If armageddon is really 'right around the corner,' or as one brother likes to say 'staring us right in the face,' then why are JWs wasting all this time, effort and money building new facilities that will take them far into the future in 'this old system?'

Answer: Even Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses.