Posts by Liberty

40

ATHEISM - Better World When Christian Are Gone?

by writetoknow in

stereotypes and prejudicessynopsis.

genocide is the ultimate expression of hatred and violence against a group of people.

this chapter traces the steps by which a group becomes the target of prejudice, discrimination, persecution and violence.

Liberty

Religionists are so brainwashed by their own violent history of oppression that they don't understand rational statements. Even the most radical speaker at this conference never came close to advocating the killing of Christians, the language was very clear to rational people that atheism should replace Christianity in the same way Steady State Geology was replaced by Plate Tectnonics. No ardent Steady Staters were killed in the process, scientists don't kill their opponents they convert them with evidence or leave them to their blubbering insanity.

You are all still welcome to believe in a Flat Earth or that the World is only 6000 years old because scientists don't kill people if they continue to believe in things that have no good evidence. A lot of hulabaloo about nothing.

People are people, Christians are sometimes crazy, violent, and evil and Atheists are sometimes crazy, violent, and evil but I have never seen any evidence to suggest that Christians as a group have a lower rate of these human defects than Atheists or any other religion. Thankfully the vast majority of the world's population is relatively peaceful and reasonable regardless of their beliefs or lack of belief.

12

Standing in the Way of Stem Cell Research

by nvrgnbk in

jw
friends

standing in the way of stem cell research.

by alan i. leshner and james a. thomsonmonday, december 3, 2007; page a17 .

a new way to trick skin cells into acting like embryos changes both everything and nothing at all.

Liberty

Thanks to Christianity's influence in the late Roman Empire and into the Middle Ages we are already 1200 years behind where we could have been as far as economics,science, and technology go. Just the books they destroyed and intelligent people they burned was bad enough but they also created a hostile environment to progress in general leaving us 1200 years of stagnation. People in Europe in the year 1000 had a much lower standard of living than the Romans did a thousand years before them.

Religion still stands in the way of progress as it's ignorant followers vote to ban cloning and stem cell research and waste valuable school resources with Intelligent Design arguments and Abstinence Only Sex Ed.. It is so sad that reason and logic are still being impeded by religion.

19

Was the CA expense ever justified to the elders?

by AK - Jeff in

at every single circuit assembly i attended, there was always the inevitable 'accounts report'.

it was pretty much always the same;.

"our expenses for the operation of this fine spiritual meal is estimated to be $18,000.

Liberty

The whole arrangement is a scam even if the expense accounts were 100% honest for each assymbly because the Watch Tower Society always makes money on the literature that is moved at one of these things and it is really a "whip up the sales force" event anyway. Why are the publishers a.k.a. the salesmen paying to participate in the first place? It is the Watch Tower Society that benifits the most from these things money wise and asking for more donations is just gravy money. When I go to a buiness related convention my employer pays for everything since it benifits them in the long run so how is the Watch Tower Society any different? The attendees should be paid for showing up, and not asked to foot the bill.

As I recall they did make money when they sold concessions since the labor was free and the food was cheap and bought in bulk and I'm sure they only stopped this because of sales tax issues. They also make money on parking. I'm sure they get kickbacks on the hotels that they make arrangements with. They also get discounts on the venue rental since they provide free clean up crews and security. The expenses are cut to the bone as it is so how could they keep coming up short?

In short, I am skeptical that these accounts reports are accurate in the first place. But even if they were, it is still a scam. The whole damn cult is a scam, the literature, the Kingdom Hall and other cult owned real estate, the free labor, the contributions to the "world wide work" are all misrepresented and shell-gamed to the Society's advantage.

64

still considering going back to meetings...

by oompa in

jw
friends

not that i want to or anything, but this therapist guy seems to think that it would be really helpful to my wife.

he says to pull out the good and ignore what you dont like, and that supporting my wife a bit in this way could be good for us as a couple.

it could also let us have at least some shot at keeping the old social life alive.

Liberty

I have enjoyed your posts oompa,

You've recieved lots of opinions on this so I may overlap some of what's already been said but I thought I'd put my spin on it. This thearpist doesn't understand that going to a JW meeting is NOT like going to a mainstream church service. Main stream churches do not use services to control an individual the way cults do.

I am an atheist but I went to a Baptist church with my then girlfriend (now wife) to make her happy early in our relationship but I felt no guilt or pressure from the services and the church expected nothing from me so a main stream church service is, at worst, just a waste of time. You well know JW meetings are far more intense and the foundations of guilt, mind control/independant thinking is BAD, Obey the FDS, type cult control are constant and the congregation will always expect more from you just because you are there.

Meetings are always a stepping stone to more activity in the cult. In my opinion, you cannot remain a passive meeting goer in the Watch Tower system simply because it is not tolerated the same way you can easily remain a passive mainstream church goer for years and years.

Do not go back to the meetings since it is so difficult to leave the cult in the first place. You will have recovery issues for years as it is and meetings will only make this worse. If you explain this to your therapist and they still think it is a reasonable concesssion to your wife I too would recommend a new therapist. Going to a Kingdom Hall is NOT like going to a mainstream church to make your wife happy as they are totally different things. It should be clear that one of the reasons you are in therapy is because of your cult involvement to begin with and you don't need any more abuse from the Watch Tower Society in the form of their brain washing meetings. It is not healthy. It would be just like an alcoholic being told that they should drink socially with their wife if it makes her happy. This is a clear case where your mental health needs to trump her "happiness" which is false anyway since she is clearly a cult victim also.

Best of Luck to you

4

Jesus, the Cross, and the Thief

by sinis in

so my old man and i went hunting the other day (he used to be a po, and myself an ms), and eventually the conversation came around to jw (he detests them after the fucked him over royal).

we start talking about jesus, and how the wts changes the comma when the bible says that jesus told the thief, "truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise".

however is aware that the greek had no punctuation and it probably should have the comma before "today".

Liberty

The Watch Tower salvation plan is simply not Biblical nor does it mirror or represent any Biblical examples as your observation proves. I don't even believe in the Bible anymore but for those who do I think it is important to note just how off track the JWs really are. The WTB&TS conversion/baptism requirements are completely against Bible examples where on numerous occasions converts were convinced and baptized on the spot the same day WITHOUT any study questions, meetings, and field service.

The Watch Tower Society also tries to use the Noah/Flood story as an example to compare to their big "A" interpretation. Read the account straight from the Bible without the Watch Tower's extra speculations and it becomes clear that the destruction of all humans is a foregone conclusion predertermined by God with NO preaching work by Noah and NO provision in the Ark to save any converts. Noah is saved based only upon his covenent (grace) with God and Noah's family is saved NOT by working out their own salvation or even being judged good by God but saved only as a favor to Noah as a part of his covenent. Even the Ark building is not a "work" which saves Noah since God has already made His promise of salvation before it's construction.

Obviously, as you pointed out, the thief could not have worked for his salvation in those final hours on the cross but was saved only by faith and Christ's grace.

33

Does any real learning take place at the Kingdom Hall?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

prearranged comments, scripted answers, word-for-word answers from the paragraph,.

no outside material allowed, short comments.... .

does anyone really learn anything at the hall?

Liberty

Back in the old days when Fred Franz was the main "Bible scholar" even though it was crap at least it had the slight flavor of an intellectual exercise. Raymond Franz, Lyman Swingle, and Ed Dunlap probably had some effect as well in making the theology interesting. Once these guys were gone it sounds to me like it has become very dumbed down.

14

Have JW's changed their tactics for talking with atheists?

by SickofLies in

jw
friends

i attended a meeting with mash (mcmaster association for secular humanists) the other day where we had an excellent guest speaker, a professor from the university of toronto who founded and runs talkorigins website.

for those that would like to see the lecture titled "evolution a theory and a fact" i will be posting it on-line in the next day or two and will post the link in this thread.. back to my question, after the speech when we took the speaker out for drinks we were all sharing experiences talking about how talkorigins helped us and the issue of jw's came up, people there were telling me that when jw's come to their door now if they state they are an atheists or don't believe in the bible they simply stop the conversation and go away.. is this an official change in tactics for the jw's?

it would be great if it were, i can think of only one reason for not wanting to try and preach to the new atheists out there, that being that people who do are getting persuaded by their arguments and leaving the church.. has anyone else heard anything like this?.

Liberty

I may have run afoul of this new tactic when a pair of JWs were visiting my inactive relatives to "encourage" them. I had known the elderly JW of the pair as a child so my relatives thought I should come in and say hello since I hadn't seen him for nearly 30 years. I came in expecting a bit of catching-up-small-talk but right after the introductions the younger of the pair asked if I was baptized. I responded that I had never been baptized even though raised as a JW because I was a skeptic about everything biblical.

The younger of the pair seemed keen on talking to me as my horrified relatives looked on. We had a nice discussion on the Creation story while the elder JW directed his attention to my relatives. At some point the elder JW had had enough of my rebuttals and cut the younger JW off by reading me a scripture which basically called me a fool and quickly got up to leave as I said his scripture had as much authority to me as the Book of Mormon did as they were retreating out the door.

I had assumed that I would have a better chance as a straight up Bible skeptic in keeping the discussion going than as a rabid anti-JW spouting what I knew about the corrupt nature of the Watch Tower Society, but I was wrong. I wish now I had taken a more aggressive approach since I was cut off anyway. Apparently Atheists aren't afforded any more discussion time than an Apostate.

24

2012

by Vernon Williams in

hey guys,.

an ex jw friend of ours ask about 2012. her sister went to a ca and the/a speaker(s) mentioned 2012?

this friend of ours was asking if i had noticed anything on this board about that date.

Liberty

If the Watch Tower Society points to the year 2012 you can be ASSURED that nothing will happen. They have 100% failure rate when predicting anything or marking dates so that is the best reason ever 2012 will be just another year.

13

Noah, Jerusalem, and Divine Judgment. How would you answer this?

by neverendingjourney in

jesus compared the last days with the days of noah 1 .

the wtbts says that noah preached for 40 years 2 before the flood came so that he could give his contemporaries a chance to repent and be saved.

when jehovahs time came, he closed the doors of the ark and brought a global deluge that killed everyone but noah and his family.

Liberty

Hi neverendingjourney,

I hope no offense was taken, I kind of highjacked your thread. I didn't mean it as a criticism of you or your idea, I just wanted to point out that the WTB&S is dead wrong about the Flood analogy to their big "A" scenario. It is all conjecture.

13

Noah, Jerusalem, and Divine Judgment. How would you answer this?

by neverendingjourney in

jesus compared the last days with the days of noah 1 .

the wtbts says that noah preached for 40 years 2 before the flood came so that he could give his contemporaries a chance to repent and be saved.

when jehovahs time came, he closed the doors of the ark and brought a global deluge that killed everyone but noah and his family.

Liberty

I just read the Flood account directly from Genesis and there is no mention anywhere of Noah preaching to people about the coming flood nor was there any provision for any would-be converts from such non-preaching to be saved. That everyone else is to die in the Flood is a forgone conclusion already decided by God. It also appears that the only reason that the rest of Noah's family were saved is because of God's "covenent" with Noah, in other words none of the members of his family worked out their own salvation nor were they judged as "good" and "worthy" but were saved just because they were Noah's intimate family as a favor to Noah. The "real" Flood story is completely different from what the Watch Tower Society teaches and has not the slightest similarity to their salvation plan for the big "A".