Posts by Liberty

13

What went on in Mexico and Malawi?

by Jerohobobonadad in

jw
friends

hello all i hope you are well.. forgive my ignorance again, but what happened in mexico/ malawi?

when did it happen?.

i keep seeing references to these places in various topics.. anyone got a good link that explains it clearly.

Liberty

Another interesting point about Malawi at that time. Since it was a one party state and no opposition parties were allowed having to buy the party card was really like having to pay a small tax. Since the card cannot really be "political" , since no real politicing was allowed in this dictatorship, the Society could have easily given this a special approval much like they did for themselves with the NGO status or with blood fractions and saved a lot of people from suffering and death. I would equate it with having to buy postage stamps from the Government Post Office or tags for your car, are these "political" activities which violate "Christian Neutrality"?

170

Let's just get something straight about 1975.

by WTFBBQPWNT in

jw
friends

nobody ever said that the end was coming in 1975.. all the hype about this date that has continued all the way down through today came from a talk in the early 70's by fred franz.

in this talk, franz pointed out the significance of the 7 creative days and how they correspond with 1,000-year time intervals.. he then said, "could the end come in 1975?

there's so much wrong with jehovah's witnesses from their rigid legalism to their faux love, but let's call a spade a spade about the 1975 thing..

Liberty

Sorry for any confusion but Lady Liberty & Liberty are two different people. I am Liberty. I just don't want Lady Liberty to be blamed for anything stupid I might write.

I am still confused by your comments R6Laser because I and most of the board know exactly where your Uncle got his belief that you would not graduate, straight from the Watchtower Society's publications. I saw almost the exact wording in print from an old Watchtower publication in this very thread. It has been official Watchtower policy for years to discourage young people from going to university and a reason often sighted is that such a "worldly" education will do you no good because the end is so near so you should be a Pioneer instead. Your Uncle did not come up with this on his own, this is Watchtower policy and not just a local congregational opinion.

Are there JWs who ignor even "strong" suggestions from the Society? Sure, there are JWs who are smarter than others and know how to play the game. Elders in my old congregation kept building their businesses, buying houses, and having children they later sent to college all the while telling the rest of us not to do these very same things because the big "A" is any day now. They were smart enough to mouth the Society words but apparently didn't put much faith in it themselves. I find these "smart" JWs the most dispicable because their own religion is obviously a joke to them. I feel sorry for the true believers who really sacrificed.

The Society did the same thing at a higher level as they invested in property and built their infrastructure just as if they knew that the big "A" was infinitely postponed. The excuse that they would need this massive physical plant to administer things in the "New System" flies in the face of their own doctrine since they believed the UN would destroy all religion and take their assests before the big "A" there would be no assurance that all these Watchtower owned material holdings would be available for their use anyway in Paradise since any and all remaining buildings, factories, or goods would be available for their use regardless of pre-destruction ownership.

170

Let's just get something straight about 1975.

by WTFBBQPWNT in

jw
friends

nobody ever said that the end was coming in 1975.. all the hype about this date that has continued all the way down through today came from a talk in the early 70's by fred franz.

in this talk, franz pointed out the significance of the 7 creative days and how they correspond with 1,000-year time intervals.. he then said, "could the end come in 1975?

there's so much wrong with jehovah's witnesses from their rigid legalism to their faux love, but let's call a spade a spade about the 1975 thing..

Liberty

Just to be perfectly clear R6Laser you are 100% correct in saying that "over zealous brothers" pushed 1975. The problem is that these "over zealous brothers" were in fact the real dictatorial leadership of the Watchtower Society to the point where they were in fact THE Watchtower Society in every sense of its full meaning. Having the Watchtower Society say that 1975 was the fault of some over zealous brothers is like the Nazi government of Germany saying WWII and all the Nazi atrocities were all the fault of a few over zealous soldiers and airmen from the German military. This statement is 100% true yet very misleading. Hitler and Goehring were just a few over zealous members of the German military but they also happened to be the absolute rulers of the Nazi dictatorship and were, IN FACT, Nazi Germany. Fred Franz was an over zealous brother, he also happened to be co-dictator of the Watchtower Society and in charge of and responsable for ALL speculation, policy, and Bible interpretation forced upon the JW community.

You are also right in declaring how hard it is to convince hard core JWs that the Society said the big "A" would happen in 1975 because the leadership has always played a shell game about who really runs the Watchtower Society and since most JWs don;t know who really is in charge it is hard for them to pin any accusations on the Society which to them does not rely on any human leadership and hence cannot be faulted for human errors.

16

Campfire Ghost Stories and Jehovah's Witnesses

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

campfire ghost stories and jehovah's witnesses being in the organization there were always stories, rumors, and gossip.

that ran rampant throughout the congregations.

from time to time you.

Liberty

The most interesting thing about all these supposidly unique JW brushes with the supernatural is that my ex-Southern Baptist wife had heard most of the same stories just modified slightly for more mainstream fundies to ooo and ahhh over, capper evidence to me that these stories are 100% made up nonsense. On top of all of this we could logically ask why would super intellegent beings just one step below the creator of the Universe (i.e. fallen angels) waste their time and powers on "demonizing" old toys,clothes, furniture, shawls, game boards, etc. just to scare a bunch of shaved apes living in some third rate star system? It just doesn't add up.

42

Ray Franz CoC, was he in denial? Just asking.

by Wasanelder Once in

i was reading a little coc last night where ray f. disusses the witch hunt at bethel that resulted in all the oustings.

as i read the doctrines that he questioned, (not judging him right or wrong), i noticed that he was questioning some of the fundamental beliefs of the wt.

ie: gov.

Liberty

What many forget is that all of us who had our little flashes of doubt while thinking at the same time that we had the "Truth" were in denial, that is why this state is called cognitive dissonance because if you weren't in some kind of denial you would have cognitive harmony.

As to the charge that Ray Franz wanted power I'd say it is completely false as I believe Fred Franz was vey early on grooming his nephew for a greater leadership role and since Fred was already ancient as hell when Ray was added to the GB then only an honest man or a fool could not see that in just a few years he (Ray) could have accepted the mantal as the new Watchtower Guru/Oracle when Fred died. The void left by Fred's death is still felt today and Ray had the intellegence and crediability to fill that void if that is what he had wanted to do. Because Ray's conscience was bothering him he was incapable of plotting this otherwise very obvious move. He wasn't even enough of a schemer to hold out for reform until he was in a better power position. He got in trouble because he felt he had to honestly discuss his doubts with others and because he could not in good conscience approve of certain GB protocals. These are hardly the actions of a power hungry plotter.

What is also forgotten or unknown to younger JWs is that there were tremendious changes bubbling over in the late 1960's and 70's in the Organization and no one knew just how it would all shake out. In this power-confused environment where Fred kept undermining his own policy changes and trying to readjust to his own interpretations I think Ray was fooled into believing for a while that organizational reform was possible from the inside, had Knorr lived a few more years it is possible that things would have turned out differently as Knorr was the pragmatic balance to Fred Franz's manic and misguided talents as a Bible interpretor. After Knorr's death it was inevitable that Fred's ego and his paranoia about any percieved disloyalty to what were essentially his ideas and traditions would take center stage much to the detriment of any would-be reformers.

44

Challenging the Discussion Board with Unsettling Questions

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

does the watchtower live with you everyday?

this post contains reasonable questions due to the fact.

that individuals who no longer claim to be one of jehovah's.

Liberty

Hi Wanderer,

Yes, Watchtowerism is and will always be with me, it is part of what/who I am. Most of us here have been abused to varying degrees by this cult and it will always be with us is some way. I am here mostly because I still can't fully grasp what a complete fool I was for ever believing in this Johoobie nonsense. I want to know all I can about this cult and why others are in or out so I can try and explain it to myself. I was a child when my parents joined so I want to get an insight into why they signed us all up for the whole painful ride. I want to help others who are in a similar victimhood as well but mostly I am here for selfish self-discovery reasons. Why did my parents do this to me and then why did I do it to myself? These and 100 other questions which may be answered if I stick around JWD a while. It fills that empty space in me that my never-been-JW wife or friends can never understand.

149

Issuing a Challenge to Atheists and Unbelievers

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

questions for the atheists and unbelievers understandably, individuals who have left the organization did so for.

personal and more than likely good reasons.

and after reading the .

Liberty

I thought I gave a very reasonable and open minded reply. Yes it is possible that there is a God, but so far no evidence for Him has been presented. If my life is guided by common sense and I respect my fellow humans then I'm not sure what belief in a silent ,intangable, invisible God can add to my life. Not to mention, that history reveals lots of true believers who were cruel, crazy, and immoral so apparently there is not even a linkage to diety belief and being a good person. There are nice folks who believe in UFOs and evil folks who believe in them but the human condition is not enhanced by any such beliefs. It is fun and interesting to think about the paranormal but such speculations will not cure cancer, build a safer car, or create cold fusion. What is REAL is interesting enough for study so why waste all our time and energy on that which MAY be real.

149

Issuing a Challenge to Atheists and Unbelievers

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

questions for the atheists and unbelievers understandably, individuals who have left the organization did so for.

personal and more than likely good reasons.

and after reading the .

Liberty

Hi Wanderer,

I'll start with your last point. Certainly no one can deny the POSSIBILITY that any thing MAY exist. There may very well be invisible pink unicorns floating in the miasmic ethers which hold my fate in their tiny hooves but which I cannot see, hear, touch, taste, or smell. Such beings would all be beside the point however, since they are outside the realm of our natural world and beyond the scope of my senses I cannot interact or come to know them or understand or manipulate the otherwise random hold they may have upon me. In short, having faith in the existance of such unseen beings will ultimately do me no good and are hence a huge waste of time. Admitting that all possibilities are possible is very much like saying, "everything is up", it just is not very informative or useful.

If God exists he has chosen to remain invisible and beyond the limited scope of human senses. If He demands something from us we are left ignorant of these demands by His total lack of communication. Any believer in any and all nonsense can claim that they know what these silent and invisible beings may want from us but we would then be left at their mercy having to believe in any and all mannor of religious/spiritual practices and traditions. Allah, Zeus, Thor, or any spirit beings for that matter are all equally possible but we must always take the word of some human prophet, revered tradition, and/or old books as our only evidence for their existence and what they may demand from us. Why is our Western European Christianity any better? I have been searching for most of my life for a "true" god and have come up confused and without any definitive proof that one is more real than any other.

I may attempt to talk about your other points latter if time permits.

17

Another Nail in the Coffin of Lies

by Amazing in

jw
friends

the use of 1914 as the start of the last generation and jesus 2nd presence prophecy has been the biggest lie ever told by the watchtower society.

they have perpetrated these false prophecies with malice of forethought, with the deliberate intent of misleading people.

if anyone has doubts, or wonders if maybe, just maybe the society might have been right about the last generation prophecy, one only has to read the newspapers everyday to see continuing evdience of the lie:.

Liberty

The stupidity of the 1914 Generation dogma of Watchtowerism is multiplied when the most commonly used understanding of "a generation" is applied. A generation, in any age, are the movers and shakers of that era and not tiny newborns and toddlers. The World War II Generation, for instance, are never thought of as those born in the 1940s but rather as those old enough to have participated in that war. The real people of the "1914 Generation" would really have encompassed the politicians, generals, business and industry leaders, and entertainers of that time, which logically means that these folks would have needed to fall into an age span of 20 years old at the youngest all the way up to many being in their late 60's around 1914. The medium age of 40 for such a "generation" would make the average person from this time 132 years old today and even a 20 year old would be 112 while a 60 year old in 1914 would be 152 years old by now.

In short, that "1914 Generation" was already long gone wayyyy before the 1995 "Generation new light" took effect, hence the insistance of the Watch Tower Society's 1975 timeline before this date proved to be such a dismal failure. A 40 year old in 1914 would have been 101 years old in 1975 so even this was stretching the limits of credulity. The Leadrship of the WatchTower Society was quite familiar with this commonly understood definition of a generation since that is what drove their "End of The World" warnings throughout the earlier part of the 20th Century. This Myth was busted long before the 1995 "new light". The entire JW chronology is and was a JOKE time proven and not just the opinion of Apostates.

19

FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE vs GOVERNING BODY

by plmkrzy in

i copied this from wikipedia so i hope the pic of the chart shows up.

it is interesting to read things about the religion in a completely unbiased format.

it puts things/sheds light in a more simplified manor.

Liberty

I brought up this glaring inconsistancy a few years ago and found that the younger JWs (those who came in after the 1980's) did not have this as a core belief at all. It was as if they had never heard of it. Back in my day (late 1960's through late 70's) it was clear to me that we were taught that the whole of the Remnent of the 144,000 left alive on earth transmitted direction from big J to the Watchtower Society through some mystical channel.

I think this was even invented by Fred Franz himself for consumption by the Rank & File while it is now clear he never believed it himself seeing how he had been around to know that the Russel, Rutherford, Knorr/Franz, leaderships were wholey dictitorial with all power to make up doctrine always in the hands of one or two men until his own contradictory writings made the Governing Body more powerful at the very end of Knorr's reign (which Franz fought like crazy to avoid). To this very day the vast majority of the JW belief system still comes from ravings of Fred Franz.