fulltimestudent

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Posts by fulltimestudent

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  94

  Karl Marx Genius Of The Modern World

  by Brokeback Watchtower in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he was all for getting rid of religions and their delusions for the betterment of mankind.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mydmc1wio8.

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  fulltimestudent

  MeanMrMustard: It is not what you think. This village is basically a corporation using labor from the surrounding towns, paying them a wage, and producing products (like steel) to sell and realizing the profits because they can calculate their inputs and outputs due to prices. The workers coming in from surrounding towns are glad to work for these capitalists because it improves their standard of living. Nothing wrong with that...

  Smile, I'm happy you picked up on that point (I wondered if anyone would notice that development).

  But it does not take away from the fact that at the start of this village's development all the labour was internal to the village. The use of non-village workers only came with success. But yes, you're basically correct in saying that the village became a corporation.

  And whether, a business enterprise is owned by one individual, or by a company or by the government is not particularly important. What's important is that has the following:

  1. Access to adequate capital.

  2. Skilled management.

  3. Skilled technicians.

  4. Good accounting practise.

  Japan is noted for its fast industrialisation in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. And, even though there was at times insufficient private capital to start a factory making a certain product, the government was prepared to step in and start a business making the product and later sell the business.

  It may be noted in this discussion that government ownership was common in the past. Right across Asia there is evidence that governments initiated production facilities. For the reason already stated, that there was insufficient private capital available for the project. Not surprising when you consider that most of the population (say 80% to 90%) was engaged in agriculture. Only the state had the resources to inject capital into some enterprise.

  Lack of capital is the limiting factor in many economic projects. When the CPC came to power in China, they inherited, not only a war ravaged economy, the warlord era, the Japanese war from 1937 and the civil war - 1945 to 1949.\, but also a shortage of capital. (The defeated GMD (or KMT) took China's gold reserves with them - one reason why Taiwan developed so fast. That was the basis of many of the problems they experienced on the road to where they now are).
• 
  94

  Karl Marx Genius Of The Modern World

  by Brokeback Watchtower in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he was all for getting rid of religions and their delusions for the betterment of mankind.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mydmc1wio8.

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  fulltimestudent

  waton: A commie factory was ordered to produce x number of footwear ( as calculated by Central Committee for need), promptly produced the most convenient to make, and at Kaganovitch pace and quality. not wanted, left the needy in need.

  Just a nit-picking correction. The calculation of the number of shoes to produce would not be made by the Central Committee. This calculation would have been made by the Central Planning Bureau. Likely you have over-simplified the planning process in order to make your point. It's a mistake to do that in order to attempt to make an ideological point

  Otherwise, I have no criticism of your criticism of the potential problems involved with Central Planning or with the motivation.

  But I would like to note that often people who just work for some business enterprise, are often very unmotivated. That's true whether they work for the government or a private company-(I could write a lot of words about that facet of human life, I'd likely start with Aristotle's concept that there existed a "natural" slave class of humans, that is, they were born to be slaves, or today, as welfare dependents).

  Back in the day, I managed a small factory, making custom products. Based on the material cost and the processes required we'd quote a price for the product, which meant we had to carefully watch production times to be sure of our gross profit. It was hard to keep the guys motivated. Sometimes, I'd chide them and tell them the world was changing and there were hungry people out there who wanted their job. That usually brought gales of laughter, but it was true, and lots of those jobs no longer exist in OZ.

  I am unsure if problems with Central Planning (if it was in universal use from 1949 until Den Xiao-Pings time) led the Chinese government to make the change to a market led economy? In any case, Deng's decision to harness the energy of ordinary people to make a quid unleashed the tremendous energy now obvious in the Chinese economy

  You may also be interested in the fact that after the Korean war ended in 1953, the DPRK (with Russian assistance) and despite the fact that nearly every structure had been damaged by US bombing, re-built far faster than the ROK. (Now the ROK is a long way ahead of the DPRK)

  That was likely because decisions could be made faster. But the whole process came unstuck with the death of Kim Il-sung. Kim Il-sung had acted like the CEO of a vast corporation and it is said that he spent most of his day on the telephone sorting out problems.

  When he died and Kim Jong-il became President (in 1994), he refused to do that, and left the nation's factories and companies to their own devices. Problems and stuff-ups soon brought all kinds or problems and this one thing likely led to the problems of the late 1990s.

  Interestingly again (I think, for you guys) Out of the famine conditions of the late 1990s, came the first glimmerings of a market economy in NK. People were desperate, and whatever they could scrounge to sell they did, little shanty markets started to spring up all over NK (sometimes selling goods obtained from relatives in China, where across a small river - in places - over two million ethnic Koreans live (the are Chinese citizens) and sometimes from Zainichi Koreans living in Japan, who, for whatever reason gave some loyalty to the DPRK (its complicated). This process, from a slow start, has accelerated in recent years and is now an important part of the north Korean economy, The strange thing is, that its mainly an area where women have taken a lead and that's also changing NK social mores, because the women make more money than their husbands. (NK claims to have full employment, so all the males have a job, even if they have no work to do, and even if their salary is worth very little. But the rules are they must turn up at their office/factory every day, anyway)
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  94

  Karl Marx Genius Of The Modern World

  by Brokeback Watchtower in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he was all for getting rid of religions and their delusions for the betterment of mankind.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mydmc1wio8.

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  fulltimestudent

  Do any successful examples of socialist communities still exist in China? Here's a YT video of Huaxi (pronounced wahshe) village in China's Jiangsu Province, which claims to be China's richest village. There's a number of reports/videos on Huaxi (some hypercritical). I selected these because they were apparently made by the Singapore Straits Times (with shares held by government approved ownership) and Singapore with a very successful economy is a mix of socialism and capitalism, and many think of Singapore as the model for China today.

  Anyway, see what you think of a successful 'socialist' village?

  Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHI8KzdpR8Q

  Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETNXB499y6M
• 
  94

  Karl Marx Genius Of The Modern World

  by Brokeback Watchtower in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he was all for getting rid of religions and their delusions for the betterment of mankind.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mydmc1wio8.

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  fulltimestudent

  The question has also been raised, "Are there any successful examples of a Marxist country? Nope, I don't know of any countries either? But we can find communities that can be described as an example of a successful "socialist" community.

  For 400 years (appox. 200 BCE to 200 CE), the Essenes were a community in Judah. If you joined the community you were (according to Josephus) required to give your belongings (wealth) to the community and work for it (as assigned) in return for your daily needs. (it is argued, by some, that many Essenes were among the first followers of Jesus, and that is why at Pentecost, the Jews in the first Jesus community, 'had all things in common.'

  Later as being 'Christian' became more clearly defined many chose to become part of of a monastic group, operating on similar principles to the Essenes. These groups were popular in Catholic areas for centuries.

  Some scholarship argues that these monastic groups were modeled on Buddhist monastic communities, true or not true, Buddhist monasteries do operate in a similar way.

  Do we see them as 'socialist"? I guess its a matter of defining 'socialist' first.
• 
  94

  Karl Marx Genius Of The Modern World

  by Brokeback Watchtower in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he was all for getting rid of religions and their delusions for the betterment of mankind.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mydmc1wio8.

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  fulltimestudent

  Thnx Brokeback Watchtower, for posting the BBC Series discussing Marx's concepts. I somehow missed it, if it was ever re-broadcast on Aussie TV.

  In the 8 years I've spent studying Asian/Chinese history, I've not really focussed much attention on 'the dismal science,' (the semi-humourous term Thomas Carlyle applied to economics). maybe that was a mistake, but I figured that understanding human history from an asiancentric viewpoint would about occupy my remaining years. But the point I want to make is that most of the arguing back and forth on this thread, misses the points Carlyle picked up on, and that is:

  1. If economics is a 'science' in any way, then what we really need to do is to see how Marx would fit into the understanding of the way economic communities (economies) work. For me, it would be his insistence that all parties must have an adequate reward. If that does not happen, then the economic community has failed and there will be repercussions.

  2.If economics is a 'science' in any way, then we should view the discussion, not just as whether any particular view is right or wrong, but on the way that view advances our understanding of the whole picture. We shoulod think of the arguments in the light of the scientific method.

  
  

  Which brings up an interesting aspect. The 2008 economic crisis (capitalist in nature) that nearly brought many economic communities to the point of collapse, is thought to have been the fault of uncontrolled American capitalism. Was anyone punished for their role in that crisis? If not, why not? Does capitalism need some controls? If so, who should control capitalism and now?
• 
  94

  Karl Marx Genius Of The Modern World

  by Brokeback Watchtower in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  he was all for getting rid of religions and their delusions for the betterment of mankind.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mydmc1wio8.

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  fulltimestudent

  If I was asked to write an essay on the topic, "Karl Marx, Genius of the Modern World," I believe I would have to argue in the negative.

  Nonetheless, there are positive aspects to the man. We have to see him as a product of his times and appreciate his concern for the lower social classes of his times. As most histories of the nineteenth century will tell us, life was tough for workers.

  We must ask however, did his influence lead to better conditions for workers? I have a suspicion that it did - in a funny sort of way. The final revolution in Russia (under Lenin, advocating Marxism) scared the 'shit' out of the ruling classes of Europe and North America and the threat of revolution led to a series of reforms during the twentieth century, though it may be hard to isolate Marx's influence against the influences of other economists.

  For anyone interested in understanding Marx's influence, rather than just shouting abuse, you could look at this selection of the "Ten most Famous Economists of all Time." Its from an UK university site:

  (Reference: https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/courses/economics/the-ten-most-influential-economists-of-all-time/ )

  Adam Smith is listed first and Karl Marx second, and John Maynard Keynes (deservedly, I think) is third. When it comes to the twentieth century generally, I think the selection would provoke a lot controversy. For example. the list leaves out any mention of the UK economist, John A. Hobson.

  But whether one agrees with the listings or not, it helps us to understand that Marx was only one voice is a world that needed change. Our world likely continues to need change, not just from the viewpoint of poverty stricken third world people, but also from from the viewpoint of first world citizens as it seems that a greater percentage of wealth continues to be accumulated by a smaller and smaller group of wealth owners

  If you want to understand the western world of the Marx;s time, you could try reading, Howard Zinn's, "A People's History of the United States." or perhaps this Sage (publishers of Academic Journals) web-page:

  "The American Worker: The War Between Capital and Labour." (Web-Link: http://sageamericanhistory.net/gildedage/topics/capital_labor_immigration.html )

  And reverting to Marx himself, in what seems to be a review of Jonathan Sperber's (Book) Karl Marx, (Published by Norton). The UK Guardian asks, Is Karl Marx still relevant ? in a 2013 issue.

  Web-link: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/may/16/karl-marx-ideas-resonate-today
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  18

  Sometimes I am very puzzled ...!!!

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  recently the extremely smart (so he tells us) but comparatively inexperienced person, elected by the very smart people who live in the usa, to be their president, announced that he was limiting ties with qatar (a small arab state in the middle east) on the grounds that they were supporting terrorism.. and yet, the very next day, he authorises the sale of twelve billion us dollars worth of modern american fighters (f15s) to that small state, in which is located ... .

  " ... the biggest us military base in the middle east, al udeid.

  ten thousand american personnel are there, many of them prosecuting the air war against isis in syria and iraq.

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  fulltimestudent

  Its off my topic, but hell, let's analyse this comment (from above) by a poster:

  "sigh.... im sure english isnt your first language but do you inderstand what you wrote...? China isnt communist execpt for that fact that they call themselves communist.... i just cant do this with you. If you want to worship chairman mao you go right ahead but you wont convince the rest of the world that the Chinese communists are anything but Chinese communists."

  OK. Labels are interesting, arn't they. Let's take another label, say "christian." Thousands of groups claim that label? Are they all the same? No need to answer, its clear that between the JW extreme on one hand, and the Catholic and the Orthodox church extreme, about the only thing in common is that they use the bible and believe in Jesus,

  So now lets define a starting point to see how much understanding of reality exists in the poster's cited above.

  The poster did not bother to define what he meant by 'communist,' so let's do that first. We could use this Livescience definition:

  https://www.livescience.com/42980-what-is-communism.html - part of which says:

  "Though the term "communism" can refer to specific political parties, at its core, communism is an ideology of economic equality through the elimination of private property. ... The beliefs of communism, most famously expressed by Karl Marx, center on the idea that inequality and suffering result from capitalism. Under capitalism, private business people and corporations own all the factories, equipment and other resources called "the means of production. These owners, according to communist doctrine, can then exploit workers, who are forced sell their labor for wages."

  So I don't know which narrow strip of land that the referred to poster thinks is the "whole world, " but the fact is that China could certainly once have been called 'communist,' but with the death of Mao, and the elevation of Deng Xiao Ping to leadership of China, there also came a change in the faction controlling the government. Mao had called Deng and others like him, "capitalist roaders." Why? Clearly because they argued against the centrally controlled economic planning that was then in use.

  Deng was pragmatic, that is, he advocated that whatever worked best, was the right thing to do. So today we find that more than half of the vast Chinese economy is controlled by what some call 'private enterprise.' That is, the government does not own them.

  Just one example, while the above poster may think that his imagined communist Chinese government owns General Motors, they plainly do not. Now he likely does not know it, but General Motors in China seems to be selling more cars in China, than it does in the USA. Is that communism?

  Slate*, an on-line news magazine, which the above poster likely thinks is a COMMUNIST magazine, looked at the question of whether China was still communist and concluded:

  "General Motors sold more cars in China than in the United States in the first half of 2010, and China now accounts for one-quarter of the company's global sales. That seems like a lot of capitalism for a country that calls itself communist. How communist is China, really?
  Not very. Since the end of the Cultural Revolution in 1976, China has all but abandoned the tenets of classical marxism, including collective ownership of the means of production. Nowadays, just about everything is at least partly privatized. Whereas the Chinese Communist Party under Chairman Mao owned every factory and farm in the nation, the economy is now a patchwork of public and private businesses."

  Source:

  * Slate was created in 1996 by former New Republic editor Michael Kinsley, initially under the ownership of Microsoft as part of MSN. On 21 December 2004, it was purchased by The Washington Post Company, later renamed the Graham Holdings Company. Since 4 June 2008, Slate has been managed by The Slate Group, an online publishing entity created by the Graham Holdings Company to develop and manage web-only magazines. Slate is based in New York City, with an additional office in Washington, DC.
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  18

  Sometimes I am very puzzled ...!!!

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  recently the extremely smart (so he tells us) but comparatively inexperienced person, elected by the very smart people who live in the usa, to be their president, announced that he was limiting ties with qatar (a small arab state in the middle east) on the grounds that they were supporting terrorism.. and yet, the very next day, he authorises the sale of twelve billion us dollars worth of modern american fighters (f15s) to that small state, in which is located ... .

  " ... the biggest us military base in the middle east, al udeid.

  ten thousand american personnel are there, many of them prosecuting the air war against isis in syria and iraq.

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  fulltimestudent

  What evidence is there that Qatar promotes terrorism more than say Saudi Arabia?

  Not much, but we learn that one of the demands of the alliance of Arab states attacking Qatar, is that the Qatar govt. should close down the Al Jazeera News Agency (which some regard as one of the most independent News sources in west Asia). Now given Mr Trump's bias against independent news sources that may explain a lot.

  Now think about this BBC news item today:

  Saudi Arabia has 'clear link' to UK extremism, report says.

  Link to that story: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40496778

  Where does that leave Mr Trump? Is he supporting a nation (Saudi Arabia) that has promoted Muslim extremism in the UK?
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  12

  Child Abuse Charges Laid Against a High level Catholic Cardinal

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  its taken a while for this to happen, but the victorian (australia) police have decided there is sufficient evidence to charge cardinal george pell with multiple sexual abuse charges.. .

  pell was once the highest ranking catholic in australia, but once the accusations of child abuse started to surface, he was shipped off to rome where, since 2014 pell has been prefect of the secretariat for the economy, (the vatican’s treasurer).. he is generally seen as no 3 in the world catholic heirarchy.. full story: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jun/29/cardinal-george-pell-charged-with-multiple-sexual-offences?cmp=soc_567.

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  fulltimestudent

  Its taken a while for this to happen, but the Victorian (Australia) police have decided there is sufficient evidence to charge Cardinal George Pell with multiple sexual abuse charges.

  
  

  Pell was once the highest ranking Catholic in Australia, but once the accusations of child abuse started to surface, he was shipped off to Rome where, since 2014 Pell has been prefect of the secretariat for the economy, (the Vatican’s treasurer).

  He is generally seen as No 3 in the world Catholic heirarchy.

  Full story: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jun/29/cardinal-george-pell-charged-with-multiple-sexual-offences?CMP=soc_567
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  1

  Using Technology to discover the past

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  an excellent example of the use of technology to map an archaeological site before digging commences can be found in this account of a (so-called) "lost" city in uzbekistan.. the city was once a likely trade mart - part of the east-west trade network (that some call the silk road) that existed across eurasia.. quote: "lost and abandoned for a thousand years, the ancient medieval city of tashbulak lies buried inches below the close-cropped grass of an isolated pasture high in the mountains of uzbekistan.once a bustling mountain stronghold of the qarakhanids — a nomadic civilization that conquered and controlled a vast central corridor of the silk road trade network — tashbulak and its ­inhabitants have remained unknown and overlooked by modern archaeology.".

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzxh5gbefby.

  full account from a washington university in st louis journal: .

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  fulltimestudent

  An excellent example of the use of technology to map an archaeological site before digging commences can be found in this account of a (so-called) "lost" city in Uzbekistan.

  The city was once a likely trade mart - part of the East-west trade network (that some call the Silk Road) that existed across EurAsia.

  Quote: "Lost and abandoned for a thousand years, the ancient medieval city of Tashbulak lies buried inches below the close-cropped grass of an isolated pasture high in the mountains of Uzbekistan.
  Once a bustling mountain stronghold of the Qarakhanids — a nomadic civilization that conquered and controlled a vast central corridor of the Silk Road trade network — Tashbulak and its ­inhabitants have remained unknown and overlooked by modern archaeology."

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzXH5GbeFbY
  

  Full account from a Washington University in St Louis journal:
  

  https://source.wustl.edu/2017/06/target-excavating-leads-lost-city/

  NB: The East West trade network cops a bashing in the Revelation in ch. 18. start reading as Vs 11.