fulltimestudent

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Posts by fulltimestudent

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  16

  Did Ancient Jewish Worshipers Ever Make Changes to the "Holy' Scriptures?

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if you have the time and the means to visit israel right now, you can see something that few modern people have seen.. at the israel museum in jerusalem, a very special document will be on display.

  the museum's website heading describes it as:.

  genesis retold: an exceptional dead sea scroll.. .

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  fulltimestudent

  GL Tirebiter: Since much of it (the Pentatuch) predates a written Hebrew language,

  Good point! It demolishs the Watchtower's construction of a narrative in which Genesis becomes a series of summaries of individual histories whose authenticity is guaranteed by divine authority. It may be that, but it cannot have been written by any eyewitness because there was no known writing system in existence.

  Here's a timeline for writing systems:

  c. 3,200 BCE - First (extant) instance of written language in Sumerian.

  c. 2,500 BCE - Beginning of literature in Sumerian.

  2,285 BCE - 2,250 BCE - Life of Enheduanna, daughter of Sargon of Akkad, and world's first author known by name.

  c. 2,150 BCE - c. 1,400 BCE - The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh written on clay tablets.

  2,000 BCE - Minoan hieroglyphic scriptis invented.

  1,700 BCE - Minoan Linear A script.

  c. 1,640 BCE - c. 1,700 BCE - Written form of the Atrahasis Myth of the Great Flood.

  1,600 BCE - Canaanite alphabet.

  The above is from the Ancient History Encyclopedia. Link: https://www.ancient.eu/writing/

  So when did early Hebrew develop a writing system. There does not seem any evidence of an early development for a Hebrew alphabet.

  A Wikipedia entry on the topic claims:

  Quote: "According to contemporary scholars, the original Hebrew script developed alongside others in the region (the region is the Land of Cannan and Arabia) during the course of the late second and first millennia BCE; it is closely related to the Phoenician script, which itself probably gave rise to the use of alphabetic writing in Greece (Greek)." (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hebrew_alphabet )

  All of which casts doubts on the story of YHWH personally writing in Hebrew the ten commandments on tablets of stone.

  And if Moses then wrote Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, what writing system did he use? Egyptian pictographs? How ironic that would be.

  GL Tirebiter: the Master Copy was an oral tradition. It was transcribed after the fact.

  An oral tradition of the Pentateuch cannot be called a Master copy.
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  29

  Masturbation is not sinful, unclean, or wicked [Rebuttal to leaked Bethel video regarding masturbation]

  by Mace.Bean in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  [the following information is intended as a response to the leaked bethel video regarding masturbation.

  if you are not aware of that video, please check it our before attempting to comment.].

  masturbation is not sinful, unclean, or wicked.

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  fulltimestudent

  
  Drearyweather : Jw's don't consider emission due to wet dreams as sinful.

  DW, I agree. Long, long ago, I had the dubious privilege of attending one of the first courses for servants (as we were still called then). It was a two week residential course at the then Sydney HQ for the witnesses in Strathfield, Sydney.

  We had to work for our supper (no freebies) so each day we all did some sort of work. I was assigned to the laundry, and there under the watchful eye of an elderly single sister, I learned to inspect all the sheets passing through the laundry for signs that a male resident may have had a night emission of semen. If I detected such I had to give it a good spray of some sort of special detergent. As the elderly sister explained my work to me, my red face gave away my inner embarrassment. At this, the good sister remarked, "Why are you embarrassed, YHWH made men like that."

  To which I had no cumback, except to become even more embarrassed.
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  16

  Did Ancient Jewish Worshipers Ever Make Changes to the "Holy' Scriptures?

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if you have the time and the means to visit israel right now, you can see something that few modern people have seen.. at the israel museum in jerusalem, a very special document will be on display.

  the museum's website heading describes it as:.

  genesis retold: an exceptional dead sea scroll.. .

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  fulltimestudent

  If you have the time and the means to visit Israel right now, you can see something that few modern people have seen.

  At the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, a very special document will be on display.

  What is it?

  The Museum's website heading describes it as:

  Genesis Retold: An exceptional Dead Sea Scroll.

  

  As you see, the scroll is in very bad condition, and this is the first time it has put on display. Here's what the Museum has to say about that scroll.

  A Rare View of an Exceptional Dead Sea Scroll
  Genesis Apocryphon starting March 15
  70 years ago, the first Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in the Judean Desert, containing the oldest copies of the Bible. This was considered the most meaningful archaeological discovery in the 20th century.
  The Genesis Apocryphon is one of the seven Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1947. Its text is a reworking of parts of Genesis, at times remaining close to the biblical version, but at times the biblical narrative is expanded through the incorporation of extra-biblical tradition.
  The scroll, is extremely fragile, which is why it had not been not exhibited in the past 50 years. Now, in honor of the State of Israel's 70th birthday, the Museum offers the opportunity of a lifetime to view this rare scroll before it is put back into storage for the future decades.
  "The scroll is unique. There is no other like it," says Dr. Adolfo Roitman, who curated the exhibition with Hagit Maoz. "The parts that survived are written in Aramaic and describe the heroes of the past: Lamech, Enoch, Noah and Abraham. The fragment on display retells Noah's story after the Deluge, as told in Genesis. The text sometimes remains close to the biblical version, but at times it expands through the incorporation of extra-biblical traditions. This serves as a source from which one can learn about the political, social and economic reality of those days".

  
  

  The WTS insists that the scriptures we have today, were preserved by YHWH to ensure that humans could know precisely what YHWH wanted us to know, and that one reason we could trust the contemporary scriptures is because early copyists took exceptional care to change nothing.

  
  

  But the above scroll is an example of some 'faithful' Jews, being willing to add to the biblical text. The Dead Sea Scroll people are generally accepted these days as having been a special section of the Essenes sect. (Though some scholarship expresses doubts). Other DD scrolls have been found with some changes also, throwing a lot of doubt on the WTS assertion about the care that copyists took.

  
  

  There are questions we should ask. Was there ever a master copy of the OT? If so, where was it kept? If in the temple, how was it preserved when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem? If it was preserved through that destruction, how was it preserved through the second destruction of the Temple (by the Romans in 70CE?

  
  

  Check the dates for the oldest copies of OT documents that have been found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript

  
  

  It does not seem to me, that we can be 100% certain that any biblical document is 100% accurate.
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  7

  Has Isaiah's signature seal been found?

  by fulltimestudent in

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  fulltimestudent

  Had some problems posting this morning, so did not get all info on the thread:

  https://theconversation.com/seal-of-the-prophet-isaiah-sorting-out-fact-from-fantasy-92296
  

  I was using a discussion that appeared in The Conversation. It was headlined;

  Seal of the Prophet Isaiah: sorting out fact from fantasy.

  Eilat Mazar,who is an archaeologist at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem claims that even though part of the inscription is missing, the missing section should be translated as prophet.

  My own take is that an historical existence does not prove divine inspiration or even the existence of a divinity, anymore than the existence of buddhist relics prove that the magical claims of Buddhism are true.

  Candida Moss's write-up notes that:

  "Isaiah is one of the most important Old Testament prophets, who predicted the birth of Jesus Christ."

  That's referring to Isaiah's prophecy at Isa 9:6. Which claims that one day a special person in the life of Israel would be born.

  The Christian appropriation of those verses does not make Jesus the promised 'Prince of Peace.' For since the death of Jesus, wew have heard nothing from him.

  and the other reference to Isaiah &:14) notes:

  "Christian tradition interprets Isaiah’s words as prophecies about the Virgin Birth, the nature of being a messiah and the universal relevance of Jesus’ messianic identity to both gentiles and Jews. "

  But the Hebrew word used there and translated centuries later in the Septuagint does not suggest that the Messiah would be born to a virgin, but merely a young woman.

  We need to differentiate between historical figures and outlandish mythical claims.

  But an interesting find even if the claims that will follow are outlandish.
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  7

  Has Isaiah's signature seal been found?

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

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  12

  Everything I once knew as a JW, is now wrong.

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just had 2 nice witnesses at the door.

  without boring you with all the to-ing and fro-ing.

  i invented a friend who became a witness back in the early 1950s, this friend tried to get me to become a witness, because his teachers father (a leader in that congregation) told him that the big a was coming in 5 years (which was true).

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  fulltimestudent

  punkofnice : Fullers - I don't envy you having to go thru all that awful Jobo nonsense.

  Yeah! Once I used to lose my temper with them (thinking of all the trouble they've caused me as the relationship was severed). Then I chose to ignore them. But this is the second time I've chosen to initiate a conversation. I was interested the first time, because the JW lady used an ipad (or whatever) to show me biblical texts. An intriguing development. This one didn't, and didn't even open the bible in her hand.
  

  Her opening question was the oldie we were using way back in Nathan's days (anyone else recall the 4 to 10 minute sermons?), "Do you think the bible is relevant?" And when I said it was all rubbish, she opened a way for me to tell her that I'd spent the last ten years studying the thought and history of Asia and reeled off a list of relevant study units I had undertaken.

  I liked your Sagan quote. A need to believe! Apt isn't it? Not just for the JWs but for most if not all religions.

  DesirousOfChange: I’m fully convinced that at least 90% of JWs have no idea what they believe. JWs have resorted to mindless, pre-scripted iPad presentations at the door because they are incapable of explaining even the basics of their beliefs.

  Absolutely agree. In my experience (In at least 6 different congregations in Aus.) understanding of doctrines broke down something like this. 5-10% could understand and discuss a wide selection of doctrines and beliefs. another 10 to 25% understood and could discuss a limited range of doctrines and beliefs. And, the remainder found it difficult to go further than limited statements. Probably 50% plus of the JWs in the congregations that I was part of. had limited cognitive abilities and found it difficult to understand WT study articles.

  Does anyone remember studying the old Babylon book in cong, book studys? We were supposed to get through about 10 pages at a time, but were often lucky to get through 3 or 4. I think the dumbing down of literature has something to do with that problem. And, we shouldn't blame the ranks of believers. In the fifties and sixties last century, most of the witnesses who were born early in the 20th century would have had limited schooling (in Aust. likely only six years) and very little cognitive ability.

  Of course, for most going to the KH for meetings was not too different to going to church, plus a few more hours a month H2H. The rest of the time life was not too different to the general population. But if you were stupid enough (like me) to take it all seriously - your life could be seriously f**ked-up!

  Drearyweather

  Yup! I exaggerated!

  Quote: From an article on literary devices;

  Exaggeration is a statement that makes something worse, or better, than it really is. In literature and oral communication, writers and speakers use exaggeration as a literary technique, to give extra stress and drama in a work or speech.
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  12

  Everything I once knew as a JW, is now wrong.

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just had 2 nice witnesses at the door.

  without boring you with all the to-ing and fro-ing.

  i invented a friend who became a witness back in the early 1950s, this friend tried to get me to become a witness, because his teachers father (a leader in that congregation) told him that the big a was coming in 5 years (which was true).

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  fulltimestudent

  Just had 2 nice witnesses at the door. Without boring you with all the to-ing and fro-ing. I invented a friend who became a witness back in the early 1950s, This friend tried to get me to become a witness, because his teachers father (a leader in that congregation) told him that the big A was coming in 5 years (which was true)

  Oh! says the nice witness, that person should not have said that.

  Why?

  Because the bible says no-one knows the day or the hour.

  I then got to 1975?

  Now it was a matter that men may have said that, but the organisation would never have said that!

  Then I was told that Jehovah's true organisation is not dogmatic, but is always changing. (Umm! Ezekiel's chariot I guess).

  I decided to let that pass.

  So then I'm asked if I believed the bible?
  

  When I answered that its rubbish. the nice witness asked me how I explained bible prophecies.

  Give me an example, I asked, expecting the usual Matt 24 routine.

  But no, I get an assertion instead. Isaiah the prophet, said that, God hangs the earth on nothing.

  Well, Ok, strictly speaking that's hardly prophecy. Its a statement.

  But I let it pass and suggested that ancient people knew quite a bit of what we now call science. For example, the ancient Greeks had calculated the circumference of the earth (and were remarkably accurate). Did you know they could do that? I asked. (Check it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

  So then they brought up Matt. 24 and WW1. I pointed out that WW1 may be called WW1, but it was really a European war. Other parts of the world were only involved because the Europeans had been colonising the world. Which I was able to demonstrate quite easily.

  I then tried to go back to other biblical statements about the earth in genesis 1. i wanted to point out how close it was to Egyptian beliefs about the creation of the earth.

  So that's when they decided they just had to go....

  But I did learn something - lots of what I used to teach (and believe) is no longer true.

  But I already knew that anyway.
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  3

  The Day I Discovered My Dog Was Trans

  by LoveUniHateExams in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi, my name is curtis williams and i’m twelve years old.

  me and my family live in tennessee.

  my daddy wanted to buy a dog to protect our family.

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  fulltimestudent

  Curtis William's daddy was shocked to see same sex sexual activity in dogs. Considering the widespread misinformation spread by ignorant christians, that's not surprising.

  Fact is, same sex mating is widespread in the animal world created by YHWH and his Jesus side-kick.

  Bruce Bagemihl, in his meta-study* of this topic, as discussed in zoological research, listed some 450 different animal species, including dogs and wolves, as having been observed having homosexual fun and games.

  * Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. Published in 1999 by Profile books in the UK, and by St. Martin's Press in the USA.
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  12

  Other Religious Denominations

  by Plato in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it’s me again, your favorite greek philosopher xdd.. i was wondering if any ex-jws around here have since indetified with other christian denominations.

  if that is the case for you, how has it been?

  do you feel more welcome?

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  fulltimestudent

  Hi again Plato - since my last post I have become intensely curious about you choice of web identity.

  It is most unusual for a JW to admit to any admiration for a Greek philosopher. But that's not what I'm curious about.

  I'm curious as to how you reconcile, the idea of a pure strand of truth (isolated into the Judeao-Christian storyline), uncontaminated by Satan's world, and the reality that after the first century, early christian converts were soon incorporating Plato's thinking into developing Christianity?

  Or, am I asking something too close to the bone (as the English saying goes).
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  11

  A World so different to the one I grew up in.

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in the early 1950's i changed my life.

  i started to study the bible with a jw.

  big mistake!

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  fulltimestudent

  dropoffyourkeylee: "Let’s hope that Africa can achieve victory against poverty as well. Some of the countries there ( Congo DR for example) are abysmal."

  We should all hope that. But it clearly will be a long project. It's interesting to consider why? There's a sort of expectation that you have an election, someone wins, then you have democracy and within a few years everything will be OK.

  Well, backtrack a bit. British democracy, is mythologised as starting in the thirteenth century with the Magna Carta. I suggest that's bullshit. (All it did was - basically- was an agreement that the powerful families in the land, also had a say). But even if true, it then took near to 1000 years to achieve full democracy. And, even so what the UK calls 'democracy,' is really an oligarchy. Two different oligarchies (power groups) vie for power and present the electorate with a list of candidates and ask the electorate to vote for them. They also (far too often) present a list of policies which are thinly disguised bribes to certain elements of the electorate. Once in power the victorious oligarchy will often ignore the will of the people.

  In the case of the D.R.Congo, another factor militating against the good order needed for progress toward poverty reduction is its recent history. To save me some time, here's an extract from the Wikipedia entry on that country:

  Quote: "European exploration of the Congo was carried out, first led by Henry Morton Stanley under the sponsorship of King Leopold II of Belgium. Leopold formally acquired rights to the Congo territory at the Conference of Berlin in 1885 and made the land his private property, naming it the Congo Free State. During the Free State, the colonial military unit, the Force Publique,forced the local population into producing rubber, and from 1885 to 1908, millions of Congolese died as a consequence of disease and exploitation. In 1908, Belgium, despite initial reluctance, formally annexed the Free State, which became the Belgian Congo."
  and, "In the Free State, colonists brutalized the local population into producing rubber, for which the spread of automobiles and development of rubber tires created a growing international market. Rubber sales made a fortune for Leopold, who built several buildings in Brussels and Ostend to honor himself and his country. To enforce the rubber quotas, the army, the Force Publique, was called in and made the practice of cutting off the limbs of the natives a matter of policy.[27]
  During the period of 1885–1908, millions of Congolese died as a consequence of exploitation and disease. In some areas the population declined dramatically – it has been estimated that sleeping sickness and smallpox killed nearly half the population in the areas surrounding the lower Congo River.[27]"
  Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo

  In Leopold's brutal control of the area, the social structure of the area was destroyed. For real progress, it will be necessary to re-build in some way the social order that makes good order possible. It is unlikely to happen in the short term.